Video from Maverick PCA DE at ECR 5/29/2010
06-05-2010, 11:33 AM
#61
Drifting
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Dallas/FortWorth Texas
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I disagree. I think ECR is much more a horsepower track than TWS. TWS has large radius sweepers which are all about momentum. ECR is a lot of long straights (and the longest straights are uphill) joined by relatively sharp radius double turns. A momentum car cannot carry much momentum at ECR. At TWS, the only place I give up any real momentum is 13/14/15 and T10. I can carry significant momentum everywhere else at TWS.
06-05-2010, 01:23 PM
#62
How can there be less steering coming out of a turn with an EARLIER APEX? The only way I could be full throttle at apex is with a LATER apex. The more steering angle that is in, the less throttle you can give. An earlier apex means more steering. This is why on the first day we teach students about late apexing.
You are correct that I do lift or tap the brake in corner. This is when the car is pushing and I need to tighten the line. This is basic weight transfer.
I use this a lot when I go up T10 where the car wants to push a lot. A slight lift of throttle does wonders in giving a little rotation. I am sure I could roll on throttle a lot earlier if I was not carrying as much speed. BTW, if you want to enter a corner faster you brake less and carry more speed in. As you mention, I do brake late. I have been intentionally displacing the apexes in turn 3 and 6. From the data I captured, I don't believe this is providing any benefit as previously noted. If you knew the track, then you know that turn 3 is a decreasing radius turn and the corner exit is off camber.
You have to give more steering input to make the second apex. Here are some other videos to watch:
http://www.davidmurry.com/pca-videos...anyon-may.html
http://www.davidmurry.com/pca-videos...anyon-may.html
Watch some of the better drivers like Jim Buckley and Rocky Johnson. You will notice they both give throttle and reduce some steering to get widen their arc. Both give more steering input and a light lift to turn to hit the second apex. You will also hear (and watch the G meter) both not get hard on the throttle until almost track out. Also watch what they do for T11. Buckley brakes more and enters slower to get on the gas earlier in the turn while Rocky carries more speed in and stays neutral until he gets closer to apex when he puts throttle in. Both do this as there is a lack of grip in the center of T11.
Finally, if you want to really see the difference tires make; watch the last video of Doug Bielefeld in his GT2. He is driving on Michelin Cup racing slicks (not MPSCs). That is a car that was hooked up.
Just so I have some point of reference: How many times have you actually been to ECR? What group do you run in? Have you ever had Buckley in your car? That's a trick question, btw. It appears you recently got this car and are still sorting it out and learning to drive it. You might even be driving with traction control on. IMO, you should continue to get instruction [at this track in particular] and then revisit this thread and your comments in say a year or two. It might surprise you.
Lastly, I was able to locate a video of an older 996 [non GT3] with a feet cam. Notice how the throttle is all the way down at most of the apexes. Also, it looks like there isn't much steering through the U-turn corners, just holding/catching the car. The lap was around 2:05 - so just a few seconds off your pace in a car with 10 years less technology and ~150 less HP at the wheels, so I think this video is a good "representative" ECR lap. Just my $0.02.
-td
[edited for clarity]
Last edited by himself; 06-05-2010 at 05:52 PM.
06-05-2010, 03:12 PM
#64
Race Car
I disagree. I think ECR is much more a horsepower track than TWS. TWS has large radius sweepers which are all about momentum. ECR is a lot of long straights (and the longest straights are uphill) joined by relatively sharp radius double turns. A momentum car cannot carry much momentum at ECR. At TWS, the only place I give up any real momentum is 13/14/15 and T10. I can carry significant momentum everywhere else at TWS.
although I do see your point that the repeat slow-uturn-accelerate process at ECR can benefit a higher hp car.
06-05-2010, 07:57 PM
#65
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Lauren,
It's only fair to point out that "himself" has not only been to ECR several times, he also instructs. He's arguably quicker than me despite driving an earlier model GT3, and since I was arguably quicker than you coming out of some of the turns where you are describing "push", there might be something to gain in trying to understand what he's telling you.
Just take a close look at the video where I was right in front of you, and go to Turn 10. Look especially at (1:35 and 7:50) Do you think I was pulling away from you as we went up the hill and down the first half of the straight? If you say no, then ignore everything that follows.
[/QUOTE]
If you say yes, then ask yourself "why, especially given your hp advantage?" Could it be that you were causing your car to push by the way you were driving it, thus losing momentum as you turned up the hill? Could it be that I was on the gas earlier in the turn than you were? Maybe.
I think the more likely answer, however is that while you were making mid turn corrections and lifting (your description), I was stepping on the throttle to rotate. This difference fueled itself, because your reaction would push the nose further into the hill (more understeer) while mine gave me even more flexibility to push the throttle harder.
Look at how you are leaning your body into the turn at T10. That body language suggests that you are fighting with the front wheels. But on most of the uphill turns at ECR, I'm lifting the inside front wheel off the ground. There's nothing there to fight. So while you are letting off the gas and shifting the weight towards further understeer, I'm dialing in the gas and shifting the weight away from understeer. That's how the gap was created.
Yes, I had stickier tires, but why would they make that big a difference going up the hill at T10 on just 3 wheels with moderate lateral g's, but NOT help me to pull away from you through much higher lateral g's in T8-9 that came before it?
You're already a fast driver... think how much quicker you could be if you gave some of himself's tips a try.
Thanks for the clarification on the other black GT3. That was just such a great photo that I figured it had to have come from fantastic lead/follow run we had on Saturday
Thanks again for making my day with that run.
It's only fair to point out that "himself" has not only been to ECR several times, he also instructs. He's arguably quicker than me despite driving an earlier model GT3, and since I was arguably quicker than you coming out of some of the turns where you are describing "push", there might be something to gain in trying to understand what he's telling you.
Just take a close look at the video where I was right in front of you, and go to Turn 10. Look especially at (1:35 and 7:50) Do you think I was pulling away from you as we went up the hill and down the first half of the straight? If you say no, then ignore everything that follows.
[/QUOTE]
If you say yes, then ask yourself "why, especially given your hp advantage?" Could it be that you were causing your car to push by the way you were driving it, thus losing momentum as you turned up the hill? Could it be that I was on the gas earlier in the turn than you were? Maybe.
I think the more likely answer, however is that while you were making mid turn corrections and lifting (your description), I was stepping on the throttle to rotate. This difference fueled itself, because your reaction would push the nose further into the hill (more understeer) while mine gave me even more flexibility to push the throttle harder.
Look at how you are leaning your body into the turn at T10. That body language suggests that you are fighting with the front wheels. But on most of the uphill turns at ECR, I'm lifting the inside front wheel off the ground. There's nothing there to fight. So while you are letting off the gas and shifting the weight towards further understeer, I'm dialing in the gas and shifting the weight away from understeer. That's how the gap was created.
Yes, I had stickier tires, but why would they make that big a difference going up the hill at T10 on just 3 wheels with moderate lateral g's, but NOT help me to pull away from you through much higher lateral g's in T8-9 that came before it?
You're already a fast driver... think how much quicker you could be if you gave some of himself's tips a try.
Thanks for the clarification on the other black GT3. That was just such a great photo that I figured it had to have come from fantastic lead/follow run we had on Saturday
Thanks again for making my day with that run.
06-05-2010, 09:52 PM
#67
that's the number one thing I have no idea why people do
06-05-2010, 11:09 PM
#69
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06-06-2010, 03:10 PM
#71
OP. Do you have video/data from MSR? Just curious as many folks here are MSR junkies. It may also shed some light on the steering input question we seem to disagree about.
-td
-td
Last edited by himself; 06-06-2010 at 03:28 PM.
07-19-2010, 12:51 PM
#73
Here is a video of a few laps in the 27s and 28s. The video does not reflect the true bumpiness of this track!
-td
07-19-2010, 03:46 PM
#74
Rennlist Member
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AljliXx2_Kg
I turned a 1:26.3 (a personal best) on Sunday afternoon. With my stock PASM in "normal" mode the bumps through 8 don't give me much grief, but I'm definitely timid on the throttle out of 11 and on to the front straight because of how upset the car can get.
07-19-2010, 03:52 PM
#75