Veloce Raptor

Ta-da!!









Professional Racing and Driving Coach

KurtC

Yeah, Loren, 7&8 need some work for sure. I appreciate you sharing the data and videos!

Dave, were you out there last week? I was looking forward to seeing some video of you at ECR.

Veloce Raptor

No, a rare weekend off! Plus, my tow vehicle is fuxored.









Professional Racing and Driving Coach

333pg333

I am not familiar with the dynamics of the GT3 except a few passenger laps last trackday. This was in a well setup car on slicks but very convincing all the same, however have you changed your neg in the front from stock setup, and what about toe? Has your car been lowered a bunch?
How about taking an earlier apex but trail brake which should help rotate the rear? Might be worth a try.

10 GT3

The first thing to know about a new GT3 is they are set up to understeer from the factory. The stock alignment is -1.5 camber all the way around with front bar set 2nd (of 4) position from full soft and the rear bar set in the middle (of 3) position. I did a conservative track alignment that is set up for the Corsas that came with the car: -2.3 front, -1.8 rear and stock toe settings. My front bar is full soft and my rear bar is full hard. Without the front bar set full soft, I could not hit an apex to save my life as it simply would not turn-in. With the settings it has now, it still understeers on low speed corners; but is neutral to light oversteer on high speed corners. I like a car that is neutral to slightly loose. The only other thing I noticed is the front bar is pre-loaded to one side with the stock end links. I am going to get a set of Tarrett adjustable end links next to get the pre-load out.

If you watch the videos, I do trail brake and it is very noticeable in certain corners: T3, T10 and T11. I have not lowered or corner balanced the car. GT3s come setup fairly low already from the factory. As the front spoiler, brake scoops and side deflectors already scrape I have no desire to lower the car further. I may corner balance it tough. I don't really want to toe it out. I tried that in my previous Carrera and I didn't like the high speed wantering that comes with it. Given the greater power of this car and trying to put that power down I am even less inclined to want to add toe. I know of several things that can easily help, most noteably tires. If I switch over to running Hoosier R6s, Goodyear or Michelin slicks I will gain a lot of grip. Right now I am going to keep driving the Corsas and see where I can get with them.

ervtx

Lauren, you should definitely get it corner balanced. And get some stickier tires. Then you'll have no problem hitting those apexes.

Veloce Raptor

LOL, Russell!

FYI, all street cars are set up to understeer from their respective factories.









Professional Racing and Driving Coach

joseph mitro

that's car dependent. ECR is not a horsepower track whereas TWS is. hence why the miata can be nearly as fast as some of the GT3s at ECR.

I enjoyed ECR. hope to get back there this year.

himself

I finally had some time to look at some video, the data plots and this thread. First off, you are driving the car pretty fast. But, IMO, there are a number of fundamental things you could alter to get a boat-load more time out of the car. Please don't think I'm trying to be an ***, I'm just tossing out some thoughts. If you don't think any of them are worth squat, no worries.

It looks like you are late apexing all of the turns, including the U-turns. If you start your turn in a little earlier, while trailing in, the car will rotate better and you won't experience the understeer you mention. Even if you don't trail in, you will benefit from turning in earlier and crisper - since the later you apex a corner, the slower you must enter it.

IMO, it doesn't look like you trail much, if any. For example, in the video "Saturday 1st afternoon, Pt 2," at 1:23 - going into turn 3 - it doesn't look like you trail brake at all. Rather, you brake pretty deep, and transition to gas when you turn the steering wheel. You can see the tach drop, and hear the gas kick in at 1:25-26 right when you turn the steering wheel (same at 3:25+). Same thing at turn 6 at 1:55 (and 4:02+) - you are on the gas right at turn in. Ditto turn 11.

Also, you saw the wheel throughout most turns - which upsets the chassis. And, you back out of the gas a couple times in each corner, which also upsets the chassis. I'm sure you've heard this many times, but you should be on full power at the apex. If you listen to the "soundtrack," you will hear that you get to full power closer to track-out all around the course. I even heard this at turn 2, where you got to WOT at track out - but you should be on full power before the T2 apex if you do it just right, but no later than the apex regardless. Basically, this means something is not "right" at corner entry through the apex if you have to wait until track out to get to WOT. You either need to get the car rotated earlier, or give up a little more on the entry. Especially in turns 6 and 11 where you want to be on the gas ASAP.

I know this may sound weird, but IMO you are using the steering wheel way to much to turn the car through a corner. You should have a steering input at the beginning of a corner, and then very little (if any) after that. You might try leaving the steering wheel locked and trailing your throttle to rotate the car - not back out of the gas, just rotate the car with the a trailing throttle. This will require going through some turns a bit faster even so that the car can be rotated in this manner. But faster is a good thing

Lastly, a GT3 with the rear bar on full stiff, front bar on full soft, AND under trail braking should not understeer and miss apexes unless something else is amiss.

-td

Greg Smith

I agree it's car dependent, but I disagree that ECR is not a HP track. Miata vs GT3 times in a DE setting don't mean much. FWIW, SM times at ECR ~2:10's, and TWS times are ~2:02's.

Lemons #3 civic... 2:15's?

10 GT3

Read your post. You have several points that make absolutely no sense. It is very clear you don't know this track by your comments and a few other comments are the opposite of what is taught. How can there be less steering coming out of a turn with an EARLIER APEX? The only way I could be full throttle at apex is with a LATER apex. The more steering angle that is in, the less throttle you can give. An earlier apex means more steering. This is why on the first day we teach students about late apexing. You are correct that I do lift or tap the brake in corner. This is when the car is pushing and I need to tighten the line. This is basic weight transfer. I use this a lot when I go up T10 where the car wants to push a lot. A slight lift of throttle does wonders in giving a little rotation. I am sure I could roll on throttle a lot earlier if I was not carrying as much speed. BTW, if you want to enter a corner faster you brake less and carry more speed in. As you mention, I do brake late. I have been intentionally displacing the apexes in turn 3 and 6. From the data I captured, I don't believe this is providing any benefit as previously noted. If you knew the track, then you know that turn 3 is a decreasing radius turn and the corner exit is off camber. You have to give more steering input to make the second apex. Here are some other videos to watch:

http://www.davidmurry.com/pca-videos...anyon-may.html

Watch some of the better drivers like Jim Buckley and Rocky Johnson. You will notice they both give throttle and reduce some steering to get widen their arc. Both give more steering input and a light lift to turn to hit the second apex. You will also hear (and watch the G meter) both not get hard on the throttle until almost track out. Also watch what they do for T11. Buckley brakes more and enters slower to get on the gas earlier in the turn while Rocky carries more speed in and stays neutral until he gets closer to apex when he puts throttle in. Both do this as there is a lack of grip in the center of T11. Finally, if you want to really see the difference tires make; watch the last video of Doug Bielefeld in his GT2. He is driving on Michelin Cup racing slicks (not MPSCs). That is a car that was hooked up.

10 GT3

Russell,

That picture is not me, it is Doug Bridges. He is the one I was passing in several of the videos. I was driving the other black GT3 (#984). We do have similar number sets as both were made from the same pattern by Blair. Quick ways to tell us apart is my car has bi-xenons while Doug's has dynamic cornering lights. I have sport buckets and Doug has 996 Euro GT3 seats. I don't run a tow hook on the front. Doug's car has a silver GT3 emblem on the back while mine is black.

Veloce Raptor

..

Sean F

I know nothing about this track or these turns. But to answer this question, yes there can be a lot less steering angle in an earlier apex approach if you truly trailbrake and rotate the car rather than just keeping some brake pressure on into the turn which doesn't provide rotation. More rotation = less steering. When I'm trailbraking well, I take an earlier apex/shallower line and the car is on the limit of traction - the car is feeling like it's about to spin and that tells me when to get on the gas - at that point there is a lot less steering input and maybe even some counter steering. You should be able to see this in your data based on where you are on the friction circle as you transition from brake to gas.

All 911's push. I like mine to push a little because I like it to feel more stable on the sweepers and then use trailbraking in the slow turns to rotate the car. But, real trailbraking is hard to do and requires you to be on the edge and comfortable with catching the car when it comes around.

YMMV

mglobe

I'm sorry Dave, but for once, you've completely understated the situation.