View Poll Results: Is Alonso on the backside of his career?
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Is Alonso on the backside of his career?
#16
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I don't know how this thread got side tracked with an Alonso vs. Schumacher debate. It's not about that. It's about an observation I've noticed about Alonso and mistakes at crucial times that have cost him this year.
Someone mentioned he's pushing the car to get that extra few 10ths because the Ferrari is not on par with the Red Bulls. True, but at Monaco Alonso was fastest in all the practices. He had the fastest car and has admitted after the race that he could have won...... but he made an unexplainable mistake in the final practice before qualifying. There are no excuses for that at this level. He probably cost himself a race win and at the very least a solid podium. He just didn't make these critical mistakes in the past.
My other point was that he he is talking like Ferrari is his last place of employment. It's clear that he is trying his best at this point with Ferrari saying all the right things eventhough he is making major mistakes. But my experience has shown that once someone is thinking about the end of their career, they are pretty much there mentally. I'm not sure if Alonso is thinking like a short timer or not, it's just something to look at over the course of the season.
There seems to be a trend over the life of a driver's career. At first, they make stupid mistakes (think Hamilton beaching the car in China, Vettel crashing into Kubica last year at the end of the race etc), then the driver matures and is nearly flawless in his execution. Then the skills begin to dimish and the mental mistakes take place, things that didn't happen just a couple years prior.
Someone mentioned he's pushing the car to get that extra few 10ths because the Ferrari is not on par with the Red Bulls. True, but at Monaco Alonso was fastest in all the practices. He had the fastest car and has admitted after the race that he could have won...... but he made an unexplainable mistake in the final practice before qualifying. There are no excuses for that at this level. He probably cost himself a race win and at the very least a solid podium. He just didn't make these critical mistakes in the past.
My other point was that he he is talking like Ferrari is his last place of employment. It's clear that he is trying his best at this point with Ferrari saying all the right things eventhough he is making major mistakes. But my experience has shown that once someone is thinking about the end of their career, they are pretty much there mentally. I'm not sure if Alonso is thinking like a short timer or not, it's just something to look at over the course of the season.
There seems to be a trend over the life of a driver's career. At first, they make stupid mistakes (think Hamilton beaching the car in China, Vettel crashing into Kubica last year at the end of the race etc), then the driver matures and is nearly flawless in his execution. Then the skills begin to dimish and the mental mistakes take place, things that didn't happen just a couple years prior.
#17
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Yes.. of course uncle larry ............ i watch your racing videos all the time ![Smilie](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif)
LOL... Yes of course Poor schumacher. His custom Bridgestones which took him to 5 wdc failed him ..Phatetic ray , very!
If Schumacher was around in the 80's he would have won no more than 1 wdc, well maybe 2 IMO, but better than that , put any of the top F1 drivers from any era and apply schumachers contractually gift and calcualte their WDC .. Hmmm
Imagine if senna could not race Prost at Mclaren .. chiii ching .....![Cheers](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/beerchug.gif)
or
Lauda could not race Prost at Mclaren ......![Cheers](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/beerchug.gif)
I know , i Know .. What if Arnoux was not allowed to race Prost @ Renault ,,,, there was 2 that got away, What if Montoya was not allowed to race Kimi ! Mansell not allowed to race Piquet .. cha ching 1 more for daddy making it 4 WDC .. on , and on ...
ahhhh yes ............... Such is the great MS, the secret is in the contract, ask Rosberg, who was faster , then slower , then faster ....
![Smilie](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif)
![Roll Eyes (Sarcastic)](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif)
First, I mentioned that many multi world champions have the ability to win when their competitors have good cars, not necessarily win championships when other drives have competitive cars.
But sure, I'll take a crack at it.
Let's take a look at the 94 season. In a way, Schumacher's start to the season was like Alonso's starts in 05 and 06. He had a car that had less pace than their competitors,
aggh Wrong !
Schumacher 94 benetton had many "illegal" modifications vs his competitors giving him a distinct advantage for the 94 season . They ( Benetton ) lost the manufactures championship because Schumachers teammates fell by the way
side. He eventually had to bump Hill with a bent car from another one of his under pressure failures and got away with it to win the 94 championship..
In 95 he won with an inferior car to the Williams , but that was due to the deficiencies of both hill and coulthard . so chalk up that 1 ...
While the Hill/Schumacher incident can be debated as to whose fault it was
LOL.. debated by who .. Stevie Wonder .............![Roll Eyes (Sarcastic)](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif)
(we know what you'll say about this), Newey had to create a Bspec Williams for DH after Senna died (RIP) in order to allow Damon to be competitive. Once he did, Schumacher's gap was significantly reduced. Remember, the Bennetton didn't have a V10 in it either (just launch control
).
OK!
What Bennetton did to the competition in 95 mostly a result of that chassis being coupled with more power. Williams won the constructors championship in 94 for a reason...they had the better car.
No they did not , Schumacher had defunct teammates 1 car scoring points vs 2 @ williams , i would agree Williams did close the gap to Benetton by season's end .
For Schumacher to even be in a position to win the championship was notable.
Now this is Phatetic ,,, LOL...
As long as we're on the subject, here's a couple more things to note. You wanted to focus on championships won, but just make note that the F310B was far behind the FW19 in 1997, especially early on in the season. Villeneuve and Frentzen weren't the greatest driver combination, but again Michael made it a close race...close enough for him to justify cheating.
LOL.... Now beyond Pathetic.....![hiha](https://rennlist.com/forums/graemlins/roflmao.gif)
Finally, let's switch gears and look at both Fernando and Michael for a second. Luck, in combination with driver skills, plays a huge role in winning a WDC without the best car. Hell, it play a huge role in general. Right team, right time, etc. Gone are the days when Villeneuve can best the turbo Renaults by pure driver skill. Modern F1 cars don't really allow for the kind of passing and race craft necessary for a driver to win on racecraft and on-track skill alone. Thus, the best thing that a driver can do to put himself in a position to win the championship in any car but the fastest is to make the passes where and when he can, score consistently, take advantage of other teams' mistakes, and drive well in chaotic situations, like the wet.
Barichello was faster than schumacher in the wet ..........
Both Alonso and Schumacher have exhibited those traits in at least two seasons. Schumacher could have won in 06 had he not blown his motor in Suzuka.
Yes , I wonder how early the championship would have been over , If Alonso never had a movable aero device at his feet in the car, Ferrari assistance played big here.. ....![Roll Eyes (Sarcastic)](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif)
Raikkonen could have won in 05 if he hadn't poured Finlandia in the Mclaren's fuel tanks before the race
True , maybe ! well good enuff to get Schumacher fired @ Ferrari
. Alonso could have won in 07
Absolutely if not for Ron Dennis and again in 08 ...
The list goes on. That's why it's pretty pointless to argue exactly how many championships a driver has. It goes beyond that...but then again I'm sure you knew that...![Smilie](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif)
![Big Grin](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
Let's take a look at the 94 season. In a way, Schumacher's start to the season was like Alonso's starts in 05 and 06. He had a car that had less pace than their competitors,
aggh Wrong !
Schumacher 94 benetton had many "illegal" modifications vs his competitors giving him a distinct advantage for the 94 season . They ( Benetton ) lost the manufactures championship because Schumachers teammates fell by the way
side. He eventually had to bump Hill with a bent car from another one of his under pressure failures and got away with it to win the 94 championship..
In 95 he won with an inferior car to the Williams , but that was due to the deficiencies of both hill and coulthard . so chalk up that 1 ...
While the Hill/Schumacher incident can be debated as to whose fault it was
LOL.. debated by who .. Stevie Wonder .............
![Roll Eyes (Sarcastic)](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif)
(we know what you'll say about this), Newey had to create a Bspec Williams for DH after Senna died (RIP) in order to allow Damon to be competitive. Once he did, Schumacher's gap was significantly reduced. Remember, the Bennetton didn't have a V10 in it either (just launch control
![Big Grin](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
OK!
What Bennetton did to the competition in 95 mostly a result of that chassis being coupled with more power. Williams won the constructors championship in 94 for a reason...they had the better car.
No they did not , Schumacher had defunct teammates 1 car scoring points vs 2 @ williams , i would agree Williams did close the gap to Benetton by season's end .
For Schumacher to even be in a position to win the championship was notable.
Now this is Phatetic ,,, LOL...
As long as we're on the subject, here's a couple more things to note. You wanted to focus on championships won, but just make note that the F310B was far behind the FW19 in 1997, especially early on in the season. Villeneuve and Frentzen weren't the greatest driver combination, but again Michael made it a close race...close enough for him to justify cheating.
LOL.... Now beyond Pathetic.....
![hiha](https://rennlist.com/forums/graemlins/roflmao.gif)
Finally, let's switch gears and look at both Fernando and Michael for a second. Luck, in combination with driver skills, plays a huge role in winning a WDC without the best car. Hell, it play a huge role in general. Right team, right time, etc. Gone are the days when Villeneuve can best the turbo Renaults by pure driver skill. Modern F1 cars don't really allow for the kind of passing and race craft necessary for a driver to win on racecraft and on-track skill alone. Thus, the best thing that a driver can do to put himself in a position to win the championship in any car but the fastest is to make the passes where and when he can, score consistently, take advantage of other teams' mistakes, and drive well in chaotic situations, like the wet.
Barichello was faster than schumacher in the wet ..........
Both Alonso and Schumacher have exhibited those traits in at least two seasons. Schumacher could have won in 06 had he not blown his motor in Suzuka.
Yes , I wonder how early the championship would have been over , If Alonso never had a movable aero device at his feet in the car, Ferrari assistance played big here.. ....
![Roll Eyes (Sarcastic)](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif)
Raikkonen could have won in 05 if he hadn't poured Finlandia in the Mclaren's fuel tanks before the race
![cherrsagai](https://rennlist.com/forums/graemlins/drink.gif)
True , maybe ! well good enuff to get Schumacher fired @ Ferrari
. Alonso could have won in 07
Absolutely if not for Ron Dennis and again in 08 ...
The list goes on. That's why it's pretty pointless to argue exactly how many championships a driver has. It goes beyond that...but then again I'm sure you knew that...
![Smilie](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif)
If Schumacher was around in the 80's he would have won no more than 1 wdc, well maybe 2 IMO, but better than that , put any of the top F1 drivers from any era and apply schumachers contractually gift and calcualte their WDC .. Hmmm
Imagine if senna could not race Prost at Mclaren .. chiii ching .....
![Cheers](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/beerchug.gif)
or
Lauda could not race Prost at Mclaren ......
![Cheers](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/beerchug.gif)
I know , i Know .. What if Arnoux was not allowed to race Prost @ Renault ,,,, there was 2 that got away, What if Montoya was not allowed to race Kimi ! Mansell not allowed to race Piquet .. cha ching 1 more for daddy making it 4 WDC .. on , and on ...
ahhhh yes ............... Such is the great MS, the secret is in the contract, ask Rosberg, who was faster , then slower , then faster ....
![cherrsagai](https://rennlist.com/forums/graemlins/drink.gif)
#18
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My other point was that he he is talking like Ferrari is his last place of employment. It's clear that he is trying his best at this point with Ferrari saying all the right things eventhough he is making major mistakes. But my experience has shown that once someone is thinking about the end of their career, they are pretty much there mentally. I'm not sure if Alonso is thinking like a short timer or not, it's just something to look at over the course of the season.
Alonso will win the WDC again (this year, IMO) and be a factor as long as he's in the car.
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Oh, Pete. Stirring the pot? I know there is someone on the board who is not taking this well.
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I don't think a couple of errors is a definitive sign he is past his prime.
I hope 29 is not over the hill. That would mean I've celebrated SOOO many anniversaries of my over the hill b-day I will soon be having an OTH-OTH birthday. Got that?
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I don't think a couple of errors is a definitive sign he is past his prime.
I hope 29 is not over the hill. That would mean I've celebrated SOOO many anniversaries of my over the hill b-day I will soon be having an OTH-OTH birthday. Got that?
![Big Grin](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
#20
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For sure Alonso is past his prime...
OK, seriously, I'm not sure whether he'll get any better he already is but that doesn't mean he's "done". He has a good car (2nd best, just behind RB at the moment) and No. 1 status in his team so as long as he maintains his skill level as it is, he has a chance to win WDC.
His 2 big mistakes in 6 races so far are a sign of his lack of "calmness" though. He's shown this before and in his WDC years didn't have to face pressure (got the early lead and from then on was just being careful and collecting points) so now when faced with pressure, it's interesting to see how he copes.
Definitely not done yet but imagine the headlines (in Italian press and from Wayne) if Kimi had screwed up twice in his 1st 6 races with Ferrari as Alonso has done...
He for sure gets a "pass" for some reason.
OK, seriously, I'm not sure whether he'll get any better he already is but that doesn't mean he's "done". He has a good car (2nd best, just behind RB at the moment) and No. 1 status in his team so as long as he maintains his skill level as it is, he has a chance to win WDC.
His 2 big mistakes in 6 races so far are a sign of his lack of "calmness" though. He's shown this before and in his WDC years didn't have to face pressure (got the early lead and from then on was just being careful and collecting points) so now when faced with pressure, it's interesting to see how he copes.
Definitely not done yet but imagine the headlines (in Italian press and from Wayne) if Kimi had screwed up twice in his 1st 6 races with Ferrari as Alonso has done...
He for sure gets a "pass" for some reason.
#21
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For sure Alonso is past his prime...
OK, seriously, I'm not sure whether he'll get any better he already is but that doesn't mean he's "done". He has a good car (2nd best, just behind RB at the moment) and No. 1 status in his team so as long as he maintains his skill level as it is, he has a chance to win WDC.
His 2 big mistakes in 6 races so far are a sign of his lack of "calmness" though. He's shown this before and in his WDC years didn't have to face pressure (got the early lead and from then on was just being careful and collecting points) so now when faced with pressure, it's interesting to see how he copes.
Definitely not done yet but imagine the headlines (in Italian press and from Wayne) if Kimi had screwed up twice in his 1st 6 races with Ferrari as Alonso has done...
He for sure gets a "pass" for some reason.
OK, seriously, I'm not sure whether he'll get any better he already is but that doesn't mean he's "done". He has a good car (2nd best, just behind RB at the moment) and No. 1 status in his team so as long as he maintains his skill level as it is, he has a chance to win WDC.
His 2 big mistakes in 6 races so far are a sign of his lack of "calmness" though. He's shown this before and in his WDC years didn't have to face pressure (got the early lead and from then on was just being careful and collecting points) so now when faced with pressure, it's interesting to see how he copes.
Definitely not done yet but imagine the headlines (in Italian press and from Wayne) if Kimi had screwed up twice in his 1st 6 races with Ferrari as Alonso has done...
He for sure gets a "pass" for some reason.
![Roll Eyes (Sarcastic)](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif)
Massa's performance is a better yardstick of where Ferrari is at the moment ...
![cherrsagai](https://rennlist.com/forums/graemlins/drink.gif)
#22
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Alonso has StrekStrekStrekStreked up royally twice but hasn't had much of anything said in media etc.
Massa? He's so lost that even finding a needle in haystack would be easier, ever since Hungary he's been somewhere else.
#23
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Originally Posted by A.Wayne
Schumacher 94 benetton had many "illegal" modifications vs his competitors giving him a distinct advantage for the 94 season . They ( Benetton ) lost the manufactures championship because Schumachers teammates fell by the wayside. He eventually had to bump Hill with a bent car from another one of his under pressure failures and got away with it to win the 94 championship..
Let’s also remember, Schumacher was rightfully penalized and wasn’t allowed to compete for two races and was excluded from two more, but STILL managed to win. Those consequences whether he alone was at fault or not, are still huge obstacles to overcome.
Originally Posted by A.Wayne
In 95 he won with an inferior car to the Williams , but that was due to the deficiencies of both hill and coulthard . so chalk up that 1 ...
Originally Posted by A.Wayne
No they did not , Schumacher had defunct teammates 1 car scoring points vs 2 @ williams , i would agree Williams did close the gap to Benetton by season's end .
As you mentioned, Schumacher’s teammates were unable to get their hands around the Benetton in 1994, mainly because it wasn’t controllable. I'll let Finn vouch of the fact the Lehto has pretty good reactions, too, so it's not as though these guys were talentless. In 95, the Benetton chassis stayed pretty much the same, which meant it was still very twitchy and loses of grip were abrupt, but with the added power, they could make up extra time on the Williams. Neither car was easy to drive, which reflects well on Herr Schumacher.
Originally Posted by A.Wayne
Now this is Phatetic ,,, LOL...
Originally Posted by A.Wayne
LOL.... Now beyond Pathetic.....
Originally Posted by A.Wayne
Barichello was faster than schumacher in the wet ..........
Originally Posted by A.Wayne
Yes , I wonder how early the championship would have been over , If Alonso never had a movable aero device at his feet in the car, Ferrari assistance played big here.. ....
Originally Posted by A.Wayne
If Schumacher was around in the 80's he would have won no more than 1 wdc, well maybe 2 IMO, but better than that , put any of the top F1 drivers from any era and apply schumachers contractually gift and calcualte their WDC .. Hmmm
Point 2 and something I’ve mentioned before, Schumacher and Brawn have worked together for a long time now, and before this season, it was Schumacher/Brawn/Byrne. The combination obviously worked wonders early on. Why would a driver want to part with a formula he knows is successful? Being a good Formula 1 driver means positioning yourself well within a team. By the logic in the first part of your signature, the (true) great one is undeserving of this title because he never won a World Championship without the help of Gordon Murray. I know I know, “BLASPHEMY!!!” and “Senna is God!!!” For the record, I have the utmost respect of his skill and commitment as a driver and I believe he is one of the best to ever participate in the sport. You’re half right, the secret to incredible numerical success is partially in the contract, the rest is skill and luck.
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#24
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I will just document each and every time ALONSA makes a major blunder. That is now 3 out of 7 race weekends and two in a row he has made an absolute unthinkable blunder for an astonishing 43% failure rate. Boy has he lost it early in his career. Still in his 20's too. That's a shame because an old man in his 40's out qualified him today.
Don't bank on any safety car periods here to save his bacon.
Don't bank on any safety car periods here to save his bacon.
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#25
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Larry Herman
2016 Ford Transit Connect Titanium LWB
2018 Tesla Model 3 - Electricity can be fun!
Retired Club Racer & National PCA Instructor
Past Flames:
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1974 914/4 2.0 Track Car
CLICK HERE to see some of my ancient racing videos.
#26
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I honestly didn't think his mistakes this year were a big deal until this qualifying session. I didn't see it but the way it's described, Alonso should have done better. I still don't think that he's "done" with his career. Piquet, Lauda, Prost...they all had bad years but the difference is that these guys were not in any type of title fight when they decided to slack.
I really do wonder what's up with him. He's performed well under pressure and even at Mclaren, after he settled down post Hungary, he didn't make mistakes on track. Driving for Ferrari? Shouldn't be a huge jump in pressure, at least not anything more than he's dealt with in the past. Needing to beat Massa? No, he's doing that. The only things I can think of are the added expectations after his maiden victory and that he feels that the team's mistakes and the reliability problem are going to cost him at the end of the year because he's under the delusion that he's actually got a shot at winning the WDC. In essence, he's essentially trying to correct the mistakes, both his and otherwise, earlier this year. Let's face it, this hasn't been the most predictable of years.
The good thing is he's not going to have the chance because RB are going to run away. His performances will thus not matter so if he's suffering from said pressure, it'll be off him until next year when Ferrari hopefully will have a more competitive car.
I really do wonder what's up with him. He's performed well under pressure and even at Mclaren, after he settled down post Hungary, he didn't make mistakes on track. Driving for Ferrari? Shouldn't be a huge jump in pressure, at least not anything more than he's dealt with in the past. Needing to beat Massa? No, he's doing that. The only things I can think of are the added expectations after his maiden victory and that he feels that the team's mistakes and the reliability problem are going to cost him at the end of the year because he's under the delusion that he's actually got a shot at winning the WDC. In essence, he's essentially trying to correct the mistakes, both his and otherwise, earlier this year. Let's face it, this hasn't been the most predictable of years.
The good thing is he's not going to have the chance because RB are going to run away. His performances will thus not matter so if he's suffering from said pressure, it'll be off him until next year when Ferrari hopefully will have a more competitive car.
#27
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I will just document each and every time ALONSA makes a major blunder. That is now 3 out of 7 race weekends and two in a row he has made an absolute unthinkable blunder for an astonishing 43% failure rate. Boy has he lost it early in his career. Still in his 20's too. That's a shame because an old man in his 40's out qualified him today.
Don't bank on any safety car periods here to save his bacon.![Roll Eyes (Sarcastic)](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif)
Don't bank on any safety car periods here to save his bacon.
![Roll Eyes (Sarcastic)](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif)
#28
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#29
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You didn't think completely writing off the car in the last practice session just before qualifying in, of all places, MONACO, wasn't a "Big Deal"?
You didn't think jumping the start in China and getting a drive through penalty was a "Big Deal"?
If what Finn is saying about him blaming the team about not developing the car enough, then the beginning of the end is upon us. The car was a race winner in week 1. Today, they are behind both Mercedes and Renault!
We all called it. Alonso is an absolute cancer to a team. Was it Montgomery that burned through Georgia in the 1800? ALonso makes that look like a backyard BBQ.
#30
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Hey! what happened in qualifying ?
There was so much dust . it appears some **** clown made another 35 Million dollar mistake and ran off the track.
There was so much dust . it appears some **** clown made another 35 Million dollar mistake and ran off the track.
![cherrsagai](https://rennlist.com/forums/graemlins/drink.gif)