Potomac-Greg

I'm going to a NASA event Sat/Sun and will be in the open passing with point group and I have a couple of questions for some of you fast movers. I'm generally very good with my mirrors and don't hold folks up; but my group will include some Z06s a GT2 and some others who will have serious closing speed.

1. If someone catches me going into a corner, am I expected to give a point by in the turn? And by "expected" I mean will the other driver be expecting the point-by and will I be infringing on his/her fun if I choose not to? In some ways, the act of giving the pass signal (taking a hand off the wheel) increases the risk.

2. I intend to take the racing line through corners and if I want to give a point by in a turn (e.g. Summit T1 or T3) I will give point by's offline. Is that what the passing car will expect? I just want to be predictable.

3. The "technical" part of Summit (T6, 7, 8) is pretty tight, and I may just decline to offer a pass until we get to T9. Again, is that going to make anyone sad?

I realize that it's mostly a matter of using common sense and caution, and I find that to be a better "rule" than trying to script out each possible event and assign a "right" and "wrong" thing for each. I just want to be a good (momentum) citizen.

docwyte

You "own" the line in NASA unless the passing car gets up to your front door. Then you have to cede the line to them. The passing car always should pass offline, you don't have to change your line.

If you're uncomfortable giving the pass signal in a certain spot on track, then don't do it. Once you get on track with everyone I think you'll find that everyone is courteous and respectful and there won't be any issues.

mrbill_fl

As I understand it, you need to give the point for the pass to occur. (not all groups/orgs follow this rule).

So it is totally your choice on where you want a car to pass you.

Should you give a point by in the corner, THEN you need to give room, (inside or outside, but not the middle half... ) and NOT take the full racing line, but give half the track to the passing car. (if you don't give a point, then the entire turn is yours.)

ie, I have never heard it was ok, to let the slower car track out, then the passing car can take the inside line.... (typical racing pass)


but when in doubt, ALWAYS ask the Chief Instructor...

Brian P

Out of curiosity, what do you mean by the "racing line"? I'm fairly familiar with Summit Point, so feel free to use it in your examples.

kurt M

I would ask this question in the day one drivers meeting to get the most accurate answer of what is expected.

Potomac-Greg

Summit T1 is a good example. If I'm coming down on the left and I have a fast mover getting big in my mirrors but who is not going to catch me by turn-in, but will be on my bumper by the apex; do I apex as normal and point left (obviously leaving room on the exit) or do I stay wide and point right? Either way, I'm compromising the turn, I just wonder what the fast mover is expecting.

Obviously, if it's a race, I am within my rights to close the door; but it's not a race.

sbelles

I don't want to put words in Bills's mouth but what I think he means, and what PCA expects, is that if you point him to the inside then you don't apex and he doesn't track out. Reverse that if you point him to the outside.

M758

No. You give a point by when you are "god damn good and ready". HPDE3 I assume right? Look in race group I run my 944 with fast cars (996 cups, vipers, vettes) all the time. In a coner if I can give a point by without upsetting my line I will. Otherwise they either find a way around or wait. In DE3 they would just wait. Some may not like it, but so what. That is the reason for a point by when passing is to let the other driver know you are ok with them passing. There can be plenty of spots that to carry any kind of speed you need to use all the road and any pass is just inviting probelms.

Yes... The car being passed stays on line. The car doing the pass with a point by or not needs to move off line. That is what is expected.

It may get some guys butt hurt, but so friking what! If you don't hink the pass is going to happen safely don't point them by. This is different from fully open passing where you need to expect that some guys will pass you any place they can. Even so most drivers chose not to be "rude" when passing. This means passing in such a tight spot that forces the slower car have to really get out of the way. Even in NASA race group I will talk to a faster driver if they make pass in practice that forces me off. I once had Viper pass me on short straight. I pointed him by in fact. As soon as he tought he cleared me he cut over in front of me. However he had not quite cleared my since we were right at the braking zone and I brake later than him (cause I am so slow). Anyway I came close to hitting him and did not apperciate that. I talked with him after the session and we were ok with things. He learned not to cut back in front of car even if it is much slower. That just creates the potential for probelms. So my point is that open passing (which is what occurs in race group practice) take cooperation from both drivers.

M758

That is not really the NASA expectataion. Race rules due mention the above, but right now the context is DE. IN DE the trailing car is responsible for a safe pass. Point by or not. Remember even if the lead car gives a point the trailing car need not take the pass if don't feel comfortable. IN DE the goal is not to pass people, but to bring the car home in 1 piece undamaged. So if you are the lead car or trailing car you don't feel there is room for safe pass be ready to either yeild room or not pass.

Same applies for race group when you are ina race.

M758

This is not right either. If you are being passed you never need to nor should move off line. If you are in corner and give pass singnal expect the faster car to DRIVE AROUND you. If the can't because they don't have the grip or the skill fine. Not your problem. Let them pass next straight. Never move off line when you are being passed. Now clearly if the car passing starts to encroach on your line you need to give them space. No need to risk contact in DE. However never move off line and never assume anyone has 1/2 a track. You have your line and you have the right to stay on it.

Their are only two safe predictable way to "yeild" to a faster car. 1) in the brake zone you wait and delay turn so the car passing on the inside has room. So you give the inside of the turn and simply turn in behind them even if it means slowing a bit more and turing in a bit late. This how you give them a corner, you still stay on you line. 2) on a straight you lift a bit when the trailing car wants to pass. Besure they are not directly behind. Dirving a 944 you pretty much never need to do that since you don't have any power, but more powerful cars should do that to less less powerful ones pass.

M758

If you get to the turn in first you can turn in where you want like normal. If they need to slow down that is their problem. On track our give them the inside with point so they take the tighter line and drive out. If they are slowed down mid-corner tough. Now if they get to the turn in right as you do or very close give you can give room on the inside just incase they try to stuff you. Better to leave room than take the turn in only to find out they thought they had it. One thing you can do to make it go easier is to yield the turn in. This means they are closing and closing fast.. Give them an early point by and then wait bit for them to turn in hot. Then try to tuck in behind with your normal line. This is in fact the fastest way through rather driving wide and never getting down to the apex. Some guys (the good ones) will see this and flash in to take the inside. Others will not take the pass and slow both of you down. Either way down worry. Once you have turned the car in you have the corner. Still watch our for someone else who may not see that, but in most cases the corner is yours. If you are comfortable with given them the outside when you are mid corner point it to them. If not track out and give them the inside as you are tracking out. I sometimes give point 50 yards before the spot just so the trailer driver sees it early knows what space they will have. This allows them to not slow mid corner if they know I am giving them the inside at track out.

Brian P

I agree with a lot of what Joe said... Let me explain how the pass would work in a race (where there is obviously no passing signal).

Let's say that you are in a few classes down from me, so I'm catching you due to superior HP, and let's say that I see you on the front straight and think I will pass you soon.

If I get even with you in the braking zone (or even have more than a half car of overlap), I'm going to expect you to leave a car width for me at the apex. If you wanted to "close the door", you should have done that in the braking zone.

If I realize that I can't get even with you, I'm going to do one of two things
1) Try to back off a bit and get a run on you coming out of the corner. I'm going to expect that you will get out of my way at track out and start going to the right as soon as you are done with tracking out (for those that don't know Summit Point, the line on the following straight has you going from the left side of the track to the right)
2) If I think you aren't a particularly fast driver. I'll leave less room than in the above option, and try to cut to the inside of you coming out of the turn (i.e., you track all the way out, and I take the inside)

If I don't know how fast you are going, then I'll probably choose option 1 and maybe switch over to option 2.

If I were in your shoes at a DE, and I thought that I would turn in before the guy reached me, I would give no signals until after I apexed. If he was close behind me, I would give him a signal to pass on the inside and I would track out fully and wait to cross the track until he has passed.

If, after I apexed, he was still far away, I would fully track out and give him a pass signal on the outside and I would quickly cross the track to give him room.

To do this, you need to feel comfortable giving a pass signal while in the middle of a turn. If that is something you are not comfortable with yet, you may want to practice it some before you join an open passing group.

bobt993

Gregg, Mid Atlantic has a very good group of instructors that get along very well. I be there for the GTS race ( assuming my car problems are sorted tomorrow) I would stay on line, be predictable and you will have fun. You will get and give pass signals anywhere on the track. Stop in and say hello. Darren has womping new 48 ft trailer that you cannot miss. I will be parked in his shadow.

dew-e

This is a PCA thing, the whole idea of sharing the entire corner 50/50. They are the only group I'm aware of that has that kind of rule. At CHIN/PBOC less restrictive run groups I will frequently give a faster car a point by to the inside, delay my turn in slightly so that I can tuck in behind them, hit a normal apex, and then we can both track out. Much faster for both drivers. I didn't care for the less restrictive PCA passing format at the event where it was offered because both cars havijng to stay in their 50% of the track is just slow in most corners. If the other car is not significantly faster, and it is supersolo(no point-bys) you might even be able to get an over-under to work and get back around that car.

To me, open passing is more about getting comfortable and having awareness of traffic being around you at any point on track. I like these groups because I hope it will make me a better racer when I decide to race. It seems to me that the PCA rule is less about teaching us how to manage traffic in a racelike environment, and more about giving the faster cars a way around slower traffic at areas other than straights. I've only done one of these, and I think it was the very first "test-run" that national PCA was doing, so we all may have been a bit timid in comparison to the other groups where this kind of passing is the norm.

The other question I saw is if it is ok to not give a pass signal in some corners. YES! Two corners pop into my head on the east coast, The bus stop at Daytona, and Bishops Bend at Sebring. I wouldn't try to pass someone in either of those two corners, and unless I thought the faster car could get it done early enough so we can both take a somewhat normal line, I'd probably avoid giving a point by approaching turn-in at either one.

Paul 996

As a NASA Instructor the rules for HPDE (not racing)

No passing w/o a point by. Therefore you point he passes. Otherwise he stays put until you signal, that can be before the corner, during the corner of after the corner. Your choice. Only do what you are comfortable with.

Again, no one says you have to give a point by in the middle of a corner unless you are comfortable.

However;
I n the context of passing in a corner
For # 2. You point where you are comfortable letting the other car go. T1-2, it is normal to give the point to the inside so you are moving offline slightly if done early in the turn, but there is no harm in you staying to the inside on 2 and then pointing the faster car to the outside. Again, wherever you are pointing to you are leaving them room to be with you.

T3 is a bit too fast for most folks to be doing a mid corner pass unless you offer the inside to them and move offline. Same for T4. T5 is slow enough to do it either way. Etc.

For #3.
If the other driver is talented and has a faster car then Yes he will be. If the speed differential is great enough all you have to do is move offline slightly in T6a/b or 7, 8 or 9 and they will rocket right past you.

Again, you don't have to move offline and you don't have to give a pass in a corner. The idea is that you are working cooperatively with the other drivers while sharing the track. You breathing off the gas and moving offline in a corner gets that faster car out of your world.