Skip Wolfe

Our region is doing the open passing with the no student rules however a neighboring region that I also instruct for is allowing student riders. I agree with Veloce that this makes it much easier from a scheduling standpoint but I was surprised at the positive feedback I got from my students. At the first event I did this at with the strudent passengers allowed, I had 2 experienced (A & B in our region) students. Both commented about how smoothly it went, that the instructors in the session had a lot of awareness of other cars coming up on them (good lesson), and they both commented and asked a lot of questions about coming into a turn off line. DE instructors can get a bit obsessed with "the line" and while that is certainly valuable for beginning and intermediate students, as the students get faster the will inevitably get a late passing signal that they take (or are in a low hp car passing a high hp car that doesn't lift as much as they should) and find that they are coming into a corner offline and they at times tend to panic. I typically will work with advanced students on this an make them take some corners offline to get the feel for it, it is nice for them to experience it as well.

Bob Rouleau

Skip - I agree that off line corner entry needs to be taught. We do this exercise twice a season for all run groups except Instructors since we usually pass under braking anyway

Veloce Raptor

Bob, we advanced instructors literally try to ride with as many advanced students in a weekend as physically possible. And since we ride in their run groups, we are not able to take them (or others) in those same run groups. This year, I have started up a dedicated instructor coaching program for one of the PCA regions for whom I instruct (Lone Star), and in order not to sacrifice my own driving sessions, I work with the other instructors in (wait for it....) the advanced run groups as they are available. So this means, literally, I cannot take ANY passengers, period. Unless I cut corners on my "duties" to free up some time. See the utter waste of resources here? And to Skip's points, I have always had great feedback from folks that riding with an instructor is a great learning tool, especially in the instructor group, since many folks who know each other will run inches apart & the awareness of faster traffic is generally much higher and more obvious.







Professional Racing and Driving Coach

Brian P

VR, I think you are the exception, not the rule. Although, I'm sure you have been told that before...

Veloce Raptor

By literally hundreds of women all around the world.

Yes, the AI's are the exception, but they are also some of our best teachers of higher level driving skills. Additionally, I still can see no good reason for PCA to deny passengers after a full year of this "experiment" while Chin, NASA, BMWCCA, etc etc etc have all found it to work beautifully without incident for years.








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Toby Pennycuff

Man, would I second this recommendation a million times over! I would have KILLED to ride with Dave a few times in the Red groups after I started racing. Now that I'm a rookie instructor, I will finally get that ride, BUT.... I completely agree with Dave that there would be real value in allowing advanced students to ride shotgun in Red sessions. What a learning experience that would be!

Veloce Raptor

And it has been in the past, before the new passing "rules". In fact, the reason I started this thread is because STUDENTS are complaining to me by the dozens.









Professional Racing and Driving Coach

NaroEscape

Dave,
I think what Manny was referring to was, sure, we both use the same company, but maybe if we allowed more liberal rules, our rates would go up more than the value that it brings. I know there are still many regions that can barely run a DE due to costs, so if we increased their insurance cost, they may not run the DE at all. PCA's insurance rates are very good and I would hate to see that change.

And as he said, instead of asking on an open forum, ask Pete. Only he can give you a real answer.

I don't see the issue here. We run expanded passing in Red. I take my students and other advanced drivers that want tuning and tweaking out in Black, or even White sometimes (if they are a newbie). What's the problem? If anything, I get more track time as I still run in my Red group too.

Veloce Raptor

I will contact Pete.

The issue here is that those of us assigned to work with advanced students are working in these sessions, and cannot give rides. We are also only available to give rides in the instructor session.









Professional Racing and Driving Coach

mrbill_fl

I did not know supersolo could take out a rider! nice!! (but does the rider need a firesuit?)

VR, I think you DO want to restrict newer Instructors in open passing, since there are many instructors that have not gone W2W before, and theres a lot going on. (learning curve).

OTOH, if you have prior W2W experience, or have a number of days in open passing, THEN I think we should allow riders in the open passing groups.
(creating an advanced instructor group)

Frankly, I love the open passing format! it allows guys like me with low HP cars to run in the advanced group, and not feel like like we are blocking.

Veloce Raptor

I fundamentally disagree. Those w/o W2W experience end up doing passing on the straights anyway, just as before. This is what I have seen here, as well as at Barber, Road Atlanta, etc. Straightaway passing still comprises at least 90% of the passes. But ALL instructors need to see & learn about off line driving and passing IMO, regardless whether they currentlyy race or ever plan to.







Professional Racing and Driving Coach

mrbill_fl

Yeah, But the new (less experienced), instructors in open passing, are getting passed in corners.... and they are not use to it, or maybe comfortable with it, so they have to pay attention to their mirrors, and can't afford to be talking to a student about line/brake zones.


-taking a student out in open passing for advanced instructors, fine. But for the less experienced instructors,(I feel) they should wait to take a student out for say 10 track days...

or until they can check their mirrors and coach from the left seat.

-IMHO, in the SE we have a LOT of NEWER instructors, with no W2W experience... and they have their hand full with open passing. better to give them some practice solo 1st.


its not about open passing, this thread is about taking a student (rider) out in open passing.

Veloce Raptor

Even this would be a better solution than what we currently have.









Professional Racing and Driving Coach

VERBOTN

This issue for me is increasing overall sit-awareness. Many drivers want to try club racing and without an open passing session a gap has been created. I am a firm believer in baby steps: 1-become solo/instructor, continue coaching, 2-ride along to see if w2w is what you really want, continuing coaching, 3-begin driving in w2w sessions, continue coaching, 4-then if all the stars line up try club racing and then REALLY get coaching. Just my $0.10

mdrums

I wish my PCA club would allow open passing but they freak out if you even get close to another car. I am not so sure open passing with point by in my PCA club would work as I find that most will not even give you a point by in the straight aways. I understand they are all about safety but I do open passing with point by in Chin and have no issues. My next step is Super Solo with PBOC.
I hope to race someday when I can afford the car, trailer ect. I use to boat race and I really miss the competition. I get rather borded at times doing DE's.