critique my lap at Laguna Seca
03-19-2010, 12:33 AM
#16
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Mike appreciate your comments. Yeap, I've read 'Going faster', 'secrets of solo racing' and there's two track guides of LS, one of them prepared by PCA even with pictures showing the position of the car at different turns. I was just reviewing 'going faster' last night, it makes much more sense after being on track, I wish I could go right back to practice and experiment some concepts I read. In that book, if I understood correctly, explains how turning in earlier will result in an early apex, same thing with late turn in and the relationship with corner entry and exit speed.... very interesting. So, not sure about ervtx comments, but hey this is confusing until you've done it several times, I'm just starting to digest all this.
Very good idea regarding the brake light, recently watched mobonic's video with all the data overlay it's fantastic, only wished also had brake and throttle position, so helpful to understand what's involved in any given turn...
Thank you guys, you give this forum so much value!
Very good idea regarding the brake light, recently watched mobonic's video with all the data overlay it's fantastic, only wished also had brake and throttle position, so helpful to understand what's involved in any given turn...
Thank you guys, you give this forum so much value!
03-19-2010, 01:19 AM
#17
Good job for your 2nd time!
I just went to LS for my first time 2 weeks ago, it was awesome!!!
I also have a 06 997S, but mine is modified a little.
Here is video of my lap.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4H4DMfxm26o
My advice is if you are going to drive your car on the track, you need to do the following to your 997S.
1. GT3 Lower Control Arms
2. Track alignment
3. Upgrade brake fluid to super blue or motul 600
Also you should really get a rollbar, it might save your life!
Thats all you need for at least a year
After that, just enjoy it and drive the **** out of it!
I just went to LS for my first time 2 weeks ago, it was awesome!!!
I also have a 06 997S, but mine is modified a little.
Here is video of my lap.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4H4DMfxm26o
My advice is if you are going to drive your car on the track, you need to do the following to your 997S.
1. GT3 Lower Control Arms
2. Track alignment
3. Upgrade brake fluid to super blue or motul 600
Also you should really get a rollbar, it might save your life!
Thats all you need for at least a year
After that, just enjoy it and drive the **** out of it!
03-19-2010, 01:31 AM
#19
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Good job for your 2nd time!
I just went to LS for my first time 2 weeks ago, it was awesome!!!
I also have a 06 997S, but mine is modified a little.
Here is video of my lap.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4H4DMfxm26o
My advice is if you are going to drive your car on the track, you need to do the following to your 997S.
1. GT3 Lower Control Arms
2. Track alignment
3. Upgrade brake fluid to super blue or motul 600
Also you should really get a rollbar, it might save your life!
Thats all you need for at least a year
After that, just enjoy it and drive the **** out of it!
I just went to LS for my first time 2 weeks ago, it was awesome!!!
I also have a 06 997S, but mine is modified a little.
Here is video of my lap.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4H4DMfxm26o
My advice is if you are going to drive your car on the track, you need to do the following to your 997S.
1. GT3 Lower Control Arms
2. Track alignment
3. Upgrade brake fluid to super blue or motul 600
Also you should really get a rollbar, it might save your life!
Thats all you need for at least a year
After that, just enjoy it and drive the **** out of it!
I did change the brake fluid with Motul 600, not for performance but mainly for safety, I knew LS is hard on brakes so wanted to make sure I wouldn't have any problems there.
03-19-2010, 01:45 AM
#20
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by the way, I watched again when I came back and noticed you downshift to 2nd in T2(I used 3rd), with the proper alignment probably helps in rotating the car at corner exit, my car gets throttle understeer and had to modulate all the way to track out...
The opposite in the corkscrew, I donwshifted to 2nd but then had to upshift while still at corner exit in 8a. Going downhill you don't need that much torque there... one more thing I'll try next time
The opposite in the corkscrew, I donwshifted to 2nd but then had to upshift while still at corner exit in 8a. Going downhill you don't need that much torque there... one more thing I'll try next time
03-19-2010, 02:29 AM
#21
Thanks for the kind word...
I'm glad I could help!!!
#1 you need to get GT3 lower control arms.. this allows you to get more negative camber in the front... and will be night in day difference in turn in
also you will not prematurely cord the outside of your tires.. so its a win win.
when i did the mod, the first turn at my next track event I was laughing out loud as I was so happy that the car actually turned in when i wanted it too!
after that just focus on driving and don't get mod crazy like I have
I'm glad I could help!!!
#1 you need to get GT3 lower control arms.. this allows you to get more negative camber in the front... and will be night in day difference in turn in
also you will not prematurely cord the outside of your tires.. so its a win win.
when i did the mod, the first turn at my next track event I was laughing out loud as I was so happy that the car actually turned in when i wanted it too!
after that just focus on driving and don't get mod crazy like I have
03-19-2010, 02:32 AM
#22
I down shift t 2nd gear on T2, so I can be in the torque band to accelerate out of the exit faster.....
in the corkscrew I just started to carry more speed into the turn and started accelerating after the first turn in and it worked perfectly....
That was my only time to LS and Im dying to get back...... Im going to shoot for a 1:40 or better next time... I hope i dont bite off more than my car can chew!
in the corkscrew I just started to carry more speed into the turn and started accelerating after the first turn in and it worked perfectly....
That was my only time to LS and Im dying to get back...... Im going to shoot for a 1:40 or better next time... I hope i dont bite off more than my car can chew!
03-19-2010, 01:57 PM
#23
Three Wheelin'
Ken:
1. You know the basic answer to that, I am certain. She has raced only once (ARC) and did quite well.
2. She will race indoor karts, and you would not stand a chance if you tried to beat her in one.
Original Poster:
1. I mean Going Faster! the video. It is much better than the book for getting started.
2. One of the things that happens early on is confusion of terminology. For example, "apex" is used in different ways.
a) I make it clear to my students that the term is mostly used relative to the driving line and widest geometric arc, which is always our goal. The Going Faster! video starts with this. The innermost point of the geometric maximum arc is the apex or optimal apex. By definition.
b) Sometimes we use the terms early apex or late apex to describe aspects of the shape of a corner. For example, if we want to take the widest arc on a turn with an acute angle, like turn 3 at Laguna Seca, the innermost point on that arc is located more than half of the way around the corner. So we sometimes say that it is a late apex, or late apex corner. Another example is turn 6 at Laguna Seca. It is an obtuse angle, with the innermost point on the widest arc located early in the cornering process. So we sometimes say that is an early apex or early apex corner.
c) Sometimes we use the terms late apex and early apex to describe the innermost point in the arc that we are planning to hit or have hit, relative to the desired optimal apex. For example, if the innermost point of our arc through turn 3 at Laguna is before the optimal apex, we will say that we took an early apex. If the car is at the limit, we will not make it through this corner without some sort of adjustment. We have chosen an arc that does not include paved track at the exit. So we will have to adjust or we will exit the track and get our car dirty.
3. One of the beauties of the video camera/brake light set up is that you can see yourself trail braking. How I teach trail braking is to discuss/describe the why, where, and how with the student off track. Then on track, we discuss keeping the nose down in places like turn 3 Laguna Seca entry. It works very well.
4. The author of Secrets of Solo Racing may be at some PCA Golden Gate Time Trial events this year as well as some Coastal Driving School events and others. He is a phenomenal instructor, enthusiast, and true student of the game. If you can get him to work with you, you will be in great shape.
- Mike
Likely at Sears Point sometime Saturday
1. You know the basic answer to that, I am certain. She has raced only once (ARC) and did quite well.
2. She will race indoor karts, and you would not stand a chance if you tried to beat her in one.
Original Poster:
1. I mean Going Faster! the video. It is much better than the book for getting started.
2. One of the things that happens early on is confusion of terminology. For example, "apex" is used in different ways.
a) I make it clear to my students that the term is mostly used relative to the driving line and widest geometric arc, which is always our goal. The Going Faster! video starts with this. The innermost point of the geometric maximum arc is the apex or optimal apex. By definition.
b) Sometimes we use the terms early apex or late apex to describe aspects of the shape of a corner. For example, if we want to take the widest arc on a turn with an acute angle, like turn 3 at Laguna Seca, the innermost point on that arc is located more than half of the way around the corner. So we sometimes say that it is a late apex, or late apex corner. Another example is turn 6 at Laguna Seca. It is an obtuse angle, with the innermost point on the widest arc located early in the cornering process. So we sometimes say that is an early apex or early apex corner.
c) Sometimes we use the terms late apex and early apex to describe the innermost point in the arc that we are planning to hit or have hit, relative to the desired optimal apex. For example, if the innermost point of our arc through turn 3 at Laguna is before the optimal apex, we will say that we took an early apex. If the car is at the limit, we will not make it through this corner without some sort of adjustment. We have chosen an arc that does not include paved track at the exit. So we will have to adjust or we will exit the track and get our car dirty.
3. One of the beauties of the video camera/brake light set up is that you can see yourself trail braking. How I teach trail braking is to discuss/describe the why, where, and how with the student off track. Then on track, we discuss keeping the nose down in places like turn 3 Laguna Seca entry. It works very well.
4. The author of Secrets of Solo Racing may be at some PCA Golden Gate Time Trial events this year as well as some Coastal Driving School events and others. He is a phenomenal instructor, enthusiast, and true student of the game. If you can get him to work with you, you will be in great shape.
- Mike
Likely at Sears Point sometime Saturday
03-19-2010, 02:25 PM
#24
Rennlist Member
Well, I'll have to disagree right back at you Mike.
I love to race guys that think that apex IS important. those are the guys that usually insist on following the "line" when going in too hot and end up spinning.
My point is, the general "line" certainly is important. I think any old lady in a caddy knows the line around a corner. If you dont, you dont deserve a standard drivers license. what I am talking about is car control and learning the limits of the car, in the confindes of the "line". 1 foot off the apex is find by me, as an instructor, if the student is showing good car control, or has a reason to be off line. Perfect lines and bad car control end up in a slower and more unsafe driver. I want to see the motion TO the apex and uncoiling of the wheel on exit. NOT, pressing, scrubbing, to hit the apex. the approach to a turn will determine if you deserve to "hit the apex". Now, for a brand new beginner, yes, I agree, just drive around and hit all the apexes perfectly, just kissing the apex birms. This is really like driving at our pace car lap speeds. But, when the driver is now exploring car control, there are other more important things to be aware of and strive for. For example, when tryng to hit turn 2 at laguna, it takes awhile for a student to understand the proper turn in speed capabilities. Eventually, he will get it, BUT, if he insists on hitting the apex as a primary goal, he will end up backwards off into the sand trap. Apexs are a luxury given to those with car control knowledge when driving the at near its limits.
As far as racing and missing apexes, there are plenty of off line fast laps Ive seen and done to discount that absolute requirement. In fact, there are many articles and test results regarding non traditional lines being the fastest in race conditions. (early apex, narrow line creating faster segment times in some cases). Again, there are so many factors to list. driver, track conditions, set up, car type, power, tires, etc, that can determine the "line" through any particular corner.
Now, much of what we both are saying might be lost in the translation, but I think you are wise enough to know what im talking about.
by the way. Here is what happens with newbees that insist on driving the line before car control. (poor guy! )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNGxO...eature=related
mk
I love to race guys that think that apex IS important. those are the guys that usually insist on following the "line" when going in too hot and end up spinning.
My point is, the general "line" certainly is important. I think any old lady in a caddy knows the line around a corner. If you dont, you dont deserve a standard drivers license. what I am talking about is car control and learning the limits of the car, in the confindes of the "line". 1 foot off the apex is find by me, as an instructor, if the student is showing good car control, or has a reason to be off line. Perfect lines and bad car control end up in a slower and more unsafe driver. I want to see the motion TO the apex and uncoiling of the wheel on exit. NOT, pressing, scrubbing, to hit the apex. the approach to a turn will determine if you deserve to "hit the apex". Now, for a brand new beginner, yes, I agree, just drive around and hit all the apexes perfectly, just kissing the apex birms. This is really like driving at our pace car lap speeds. But, when the driver is now exploring car control, there are other more important things to be aware of and strive for. For example, when tryng to hit turn 2 at laguna, it takes awhile for a student to understand the proper turn in speed capabilities. Eventually, he will get it, BUT, if he insists on hitting the apex as a primary goal, he will end up backwards off into the sand trap. Apexs are a luxury given to those with car control knowledge when driving the at near its limits.
As far as racing and missing apexes, there are plenty of off line fast laps Ive seen and done to discount that absolute requirement. In fact, there are many articles and test results regarding non traditional lines being the fastest in race conditions. (early apex, narrow line creating faster segment times in some cases). Again, there are so many factors to list. driver, track conditions, set up, car type, power, tires, etc, that can determine the "line" through any particular corner.
Now, much of what we both are saying might be lost in the translation, but I think you are wise enough to know what im talking about.
by the way. Here is what happens with newbees that insist on driving the line before car control. (poor guy! )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNGxO...eature=related
mk
Sorry Mark, I have to disagree. You should learn to drive the correct line from the very beginning. And you should fully understand why it is the correct line. The fastest way through a turn is the widest arc by definition. The geometry of the turn defines the correct line-- basing everything on physics. We can and do deviate from the widest arc line for various reasons and under various circumstances. I am sure you know that Mark, but may not be articulating it clearly, at least to me. And I am sure you know all of the whys and all of the theory.
For Laguna, you can learn from the PCA Golden Gate Region's track guide.
In any case, hitting apexes is tantamount. A foot is not close enough. As an instructor, I want Angstroms. Consistently. This is a non-negotiable to learn things the right way. Do you think Johannes would ever tell anyone that hitting apexes is not important?
I love it when I race against people who don't think hitting apexes is important.
I also love it when I race against a guy that only took instruction in his first few events. Don't just get seat time, get instruction. And if you want to get good or great, bathe in the atmosphere of learning to do things the right way.
I strongly suggest re-reading my suggestions 1-6.
Here is another one:
7. Consider getting together with others interested in the craft at non-track events. Say a get-together where you watch the Skip Barber video and stop at times for some structured group discussion. Popcorn helps. Beer probably does not, beyond moderation. Do more of this than showing your friends your cool track video.
Be a student of the game.
For Laguna, you can learn from the PCA Golden Gate Region's track guide.
In any case, hitting apexes is tantamount. A foot is not close enough. As an instructor, I want Angstroms. Consistently. This is a non-negotiable to learn things the right way. Do you think Johannes would ever tell anyone that hitting apexes is not important?
I love it when I race against people who don't think hitting apexes is important.
I also love it when I race against a guy that only took instruction in his first few events. Don't just get seat time, get instruction. And if you want to get good or great, bathe in the atmosphere of learning to do things the right way.
I strongly suggest re-reading my suggestions 1-6.
Here is another one:
7. Consider getting together with others interested in the craft at non-track events. Say a get-together where you watch the Skip Barber video and stop at times for some structured group discussion. Popcorn helps. Beer probably does not, beyond moderation. Do more of this than showing your friends your cool track video.
Be a student of the game.
Last edited by mark kibort; 03-19-2010 at 06:01 PM.
03-19-2010, 02:33 PM
#25
Rennlist Member
Those are pretty good laps. Is this your first time there, running 1:47s? If so, great job, even with a few little "issues".
most of the lap looks good. exit of the corkscrew is too narrow and then you start you turn into 9 a little late. turn 10, which is usually the easiest turn, can bite you if you
mk
most of the lap looks good. exit of the corkscrew is too narrow and then you start you turn into 9 a little late. turn 10, which is usually the easiest turn, can bite you if you
mk
Good job for your 2nd time!
I just went to LS for my first time 2 weeks ago, it was awesome!!!
I also have a 06 997S, but mine is modified a little.
Here is video of my lap.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4H4DMfxm26o
My advice is if you are going to drive your car on the track, you need to do the following to your 997S.
1. GT3 Lower Control Arms
2. Track alignment
3. Upgrade brake fluid to super blue or motul 600
Also you should really get a rollbar, it might save your life!
Thats all you need for at least a year
After that, just enjoy it and drive the **** out of it!
I just went to LS for my first time 2 weeks ago, it was awesome!!!
I also have a 06 997S, but mine is modified a little.
Here is video of my lap.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4H4DMfxm26o
My advice is if you are going to drive your car on the track, you need to do the following to your 997S.
1. GT3 Lower Control Arms
2. Track alignment
3. Upgrade brake fluid to super blue or motul 600
Also you should really get a rollbar, it might save your life!
Thats all you need for at least a year
After that, just enjoy it and drive the **** out of it!
03-19-2010, 03:17 PM
#26
Mark... thanks, but the fast lap was a 1:44... with a few mistakes and like you said not the best line from the corkscrew to t10...
This was my first time at Laguna Seca, and I hope to get down to 1:40 my next time there when the track is drier (the track was soaking wet on day 1 and barely drying out on day 2)... we had to stay off all the gators.. those who did not spun out as there was ZERO grip on them
This was my first time at Laguna Seca, and I hope to get down to 1:40 my next time there when the track is drier (the track was soaking wet on day 1 and barely drying out on day 2)... we had to stay off all the gators.. those who did not spun out as there was ZERO grip on them
03-19-2010, 05:20 PM
#27
Rennlist Member
Sorry, 1:44?? thats fantastic.
I didnt get to finish as I was running out to a meeting, but what I was going to say was that it is a classic mistake coming out of the corkscrew and taking the exit narrrow. (causes issues sometimes, but you it did not). then going up high to the right before turn 9, you did fine, but you began your turn in for 9 way too late and that set up a poor run through there, on the highlight clip of the "issue" with 9, you can see you missed it there and it bit you as you ended up going wide, a little panic to not go off track, which you were not anyway, and that caused the back end to wiggle. then, going down to 10, which is a banked downhill turn, you turn in too quickly (very common mistake) it takes the rear and kicks it out. then, if you are really unlucky, but the time you gather it back up, you are in the meat of the apex, and the compression of the turn alows for a quicker recovery than you might expect, due to some positive gs, and it can snap back and have you pointed off to the left of 10. (ask me how I know this .
) Anyway, not much to say about the 9 other turns. they look pretty good.
Now, what kind of tires and car are you driving.
EDIT: Just saw from the video that you are on RA1s and its a 997S. (355hp rating) For the first time there, thats very good.
I didnt get to finish as I was running out to a meeting, but what I was going to say was that it is a classic mistake coming out of the corkscrew and taking the exit narrrow. (causes issues sometimes, but you it did not). then going up high to the right before turn 9, you did fine, but you began your turn in for 9 way too late and that set up a poor run through there, on the highlight clip of the "issue" with 9, you can see you missed it there and it bit you as you ended up going wide, a little panic to not go off track, which you were not anyway, and that caused the back end to wiggle. then, going down to 10, which is a banked downhill turn, you turn in too quickly (very common mistake) it takes the rear and kicks it out. then, if you are really unlucky, but the time you gather it back up, you are in the meat of the apex, and the compression of the turn alows for a quicker recovery than you might expect, due to some positive gs, and it can snap back and have you pointed off to the left of 10. (ask me how I know this .
) Anyway, not much to say about the 9 other turns. they look pretty good.Now, what kind of tires and car are you driving.
EDIT: Just saw from the video that you are on RA1s and its a 997S. (355hp rating) For the first time there, thats very good.
Mark... thanks, but the fast lap was a 1:44... with a few mistakes and like you said not the best line from the corkscrew to t10...
This was my first time at Laguna Seca, and I hope to get down to 1:40 my next time there when the track is drier (the track was soaking wet on day 1 and barely drying out on day 2)... we had to stay off all the gators.. those who did not spun out as there was ZERO grip on them
This was my first time at Laguna Seca, and I hope to get down to 1:40 my next time there when the track is drier (the track was soaking wet on day 1 and barely drying out on day 2)... we had to stay off all the gators.. those who did not spun out as there was ZERO grip on them
Last edited by mark kibort; 03-19-2010 at 05:37 PM.
