BostonDMD

Interesting......

bobt993

Brian, check with some of the "H" guys. They have found out how to unplug the PSM vacuum pump and make go away on the track. Croc again I am not attacking you personally just arguing your statement. You said yourself your going against the grain, it just happened to rub me the wrong way.

kurt M

Expected. The GT3 is a car that you can buy right off the lot and street and track drive well on the same day no muss no fuss. No planning no building no slow advancement in power to weight. Sign the lease and go. That said I personally don't think it is a bunch of n00b drivers. The problems lie in the fact that you can get race car times in a street car setup. I think they can lull some drivers into thinking they have more safety factor or are at less tenth so to speak than they are. Some of the most spectacular DE wrecks I have seen were GT3s.

bobt993

^^^ Yep. One thing I have learned is the street setup in the GT3-6 tends to be lethal on the track. The car has a tendency to go from understeer to oversteer quickly. It takes some major tuning to get the car stable at turn-in and exit.

NJcroc

The tc can be permantly disabled on a newer car that is track only. there are a few running that I know have it disconnected.

Stock E and F are most likely the only place to see an older and newer style car head to head and they are pretty close from most of the results. Brian and Paulo's cars are good examples of the newr and older tech.

I would think the boxster is easier to 95% but the last 5% is more diff to achieve

DanR

why would the last 5% be harder to extract?

cgomez

Agreed, the PSM "issue" is the biggest misconception about the 996, 997, 986 and 987 cars. When you take PSM off it is really OFF.
The main "problem" is that the ABS system is NOT a RACE ABS, so it is not calibrated to very stiff suspensions and super sticky tires. What people "say" (and repeat without being the ones to experience it) about PSM intervening in ABS situations is mostly due to extreme ABS intervention (i.e. 'icemode"). This is mostly caused by extreme application of the brakes that causes the stock ABS system not to be able to cycle fast enough due to the stiffness of the suspension system (spring, shocks, tires), and therefore the car literally has NO brakes for a prolonged period of time. This can be avoided by being sensible with the brakes (progressive tactful application - no caveman stomp). Obviously, you need to adapt as race conditions change and front brakes begin to fade, which is typically the case in the stock (non PCCB) Cayman.

In a 987 with the stock ABS yu can definitively trail brake. See chart below (Limerock, 58,5 Lap in Cayman S. Speed charted for all wheels, see some lock in inner front under braking while turning and see the 0.8G load while still applying almost 40% brake power).



Obviously, the race ABS system like the one used in GrandAm (Ive driven my teamates Cayman's with it) is MUCH better than the stock system and will allow for a lot easier trail braking, even on ice, if properly calibrated.

Brian P

This may be true in the 987/997 based cars, but it certainly isn't true in the 986. The PSM comes on while the brakes are activated, and it turns off again when your foot comes off the brakes.

race911

Non-relevant observation at the top of the food chain from yesterday's Sears Point race. Matt Lowrance in a 3.8 t-bar chassis car easily beats some TRG Grand-Am guy. Peter Smith, in Matt's old car (another 3.8 t-bar car) is 3rd overall. I think Masuo Robinson took third ahead of the 2nd TRG Grand-Am car, his being a Matt built 3.4L t-bar car. All running the Goodyear bias plys. All five qualified in the 1:40-1:42 range. Probably none of the Matt built cars, in total, cost more than what the engines in the Grand-Am cost for a freshening.

Juan Lopez

I follow your logic to a point and my point of view comes from driving a narrow tired, no aero, low torque/hp car (compared to other "old/early 911's") but I disagree on your view on "rescue" from HP.

HP will help "rescue" a lap time if you are not good in your turns. That is why you see the typical Viper, Mustang, Corvette, Turbo issue vs older cars. If driven well the newer, better equipped cars (more power, tires, ...) cars should be faster all over a lap however, if the driver is not particularly good with that car on turns, he'll still have the big HP to make part of the time not maintained on the turn on the straights.

I have had this at PCA races where I smoke newer cars (GT3's for example on the infield at Daytona) to be blown away before the bus-stop.

I agree, the goal is to drive whatever you drive at the limit on a consistent basis. That is what makes an excellent driver. Add to that racecraft and you have an excellent racer.

Juan Lopez

yep........

racer

1) It was mentioned that GT3's have a high accident rate at DEs (and I agree). I wonder how they would compare to rates of 930s at track events when they were the new "it" car. Fact is, it seems most of the people who stepped into those cars, did not always have the experience needed to wrestle 300-400hp rwd cars with minimal (for the period) driver aids. Certainly true of the 930 crowd. Perhaps the same for the GT3 crowd?

2) Having enjoyed older (914, SC, 944) and newer (boxster), I would say the 911 was one of the easier to drive at the limit.. why? because it told you... hey stupid.. 60% of the mass is back here.. so pay attention as I start to slide around. This wasn't the case with the 914.. whether at AX or DE, I felt the 914 easy to drive as you approach the limit.. but man, you better be paying real close attention for those last 5% because a snap oversteer was just a blink away. The 911 said at about 80%.. ok..wake up.. and if you did, getting the rest out of it can be done with confidence.

The limit is the limit no matter the type of car. To reach that point, it is the driver, and not the car, that will be the bigger issue.

cgomez

Agreed, but although higher HP cars might allow anyone to post in relatively good lap times (and "rescue" a mistake) at the DE or CR level (compared to normal, older cars), still, the full potential from those cars is much much higher, and the time difference (absolute and %wise) will be much higher between a great driver and a good one in a faster car than in a slower one.

In other words you need more skills to get to 98% of the full potential of a faster car (new or old) than 98% of an older slower one.

Juan Lopez

Well said!

Darren

Try pulling the steering angle sensor plug and see what happens No PSM and ABS works fine.