or is it just as easy as the newer ones?........

1) Is it as easy to learn to drive well as the front and mid-engined Porsche?.......

2) Is an older 911(car) driver required to be more skillfull than the other platforms in order to survive and place well, or it doesn't matter whether the "nannies" (ABS, Power Steering, PSM) in the newer cars are there on or not?

Just looking for some discussion........

 

I don't know if you will get a comment on this one, my friend. No controversy whatsoever.
How did you like COM (which I hear is not dominated by Corvettes, despite the name)?

 

Just shuffling things around Rick......

COM was well organized, I just hoped it wasn't at NHIS which is a track which is horrible on beating up the car and driver.......but then again, you knew that......

 

Paolo you have power brakes? That's not fair.

 

If anything, an old 911 is an easier car to learn in... 'cause there's so much more going on to teach you! In these new-fangled cars, the cars do everything and you don't learn squat!

 

Yes.

 

Of course they are. Specially the late 70s models, they take a real man with mad skill to drive well. JK.

I think I might change the question a bit and say FAST.
My Boxster was easy to drive fast. No PSM but power steering, and brakes to die for. Smooth suspension and a comfortable ride to boot.

 

Well...

You don't have the tires. You don't have the grip. You don't have the suspension kinematics. You don't have nannies. On the other hand, you don't have a bazilliion HP or MPH to deal with either. It might be easier to biff in the oldster, but it should hurt less. Yes, of course the older car is harder to drive well, but oh so much more rewarding, in my estimation. Less people can do it!

HP is a halucinogen, and a false profit. Be A Pepper!

 

The one time I took my 997TT to the Glen it was pouring rain and I was doing 150 something on the back straight. Could I have done that without all the electronic nannies? No way! My experience with my own 997s and those at PSDS is that they are a blast to drive at the track and are fairly easy to drive.

All that said, I greatly prefer driving my non-TC non-PSM non-LSD Boxster at the track. It has done wonders in teaching me how to drive.

I think that one day I would like to own an older 911 as a track car.

 

Well put. You need to learn to establish and maintain momentum. You don't have the high HP to pull you out of corners taken too tight or too wide (for example).

To do it you need finesse and a good skill for weight transfer (amongst other things).

I know, I race a 2 liter.......

 

Don't forget - keep the revs up.

 

Yes

 

I don't think they are any harder at all. But it is relative... and depends on what is meant by harder. I will presume that it means more diffiult to drive at the particular car's limit, which is the goal after all.

My first driving event of any kind was a PCA deal at LRP in 1987 in a stock '84 944 with about 2/32 of tread depth on its original tires. No AX, nor karting before that. I had a female instructor in a lightweight 911 race car, I think with 3.0L or under and I think with DOT stickies or slicks. I remember vividly that she could more easily rotate the car in big bend than I could... using the weight, throttle response, etc. I did a few AX and track events for a few years after that, then progressed up to 951s... and eventually in about 2001, a full weight 951 with 360 bhp, racing suspension and safety equipment and big, sticky DOT tires. The 951 handled well. Through all of this, I always felt disadvantaged in many respects compared to 911 cars. One area was serviceabilty.

Anyway, in 2001 I switched to a 1950 pound 1975 911 with a 3.8L , about 330 bhp and big sticky slicks. A lot of things were different about this car, but I was on pace immediately, and found it easier to drive than the heavy 951. The first time I drove it was thinking... all the weight is in the wrong place," but I just used it to my advantage. And in those first few laps when the rear started to step out at 80+ mph, I just instinctively gave it more gas. My wife was on pace right away too, and within two events earned the first TTOD for a lady in our PCA region, just beating our chief instructor (who authored a famous book on driving) and was pedaling a similar 911 car but with a 3.8L TT lump making over 650 bhp.

I think once you can drive, you can drive. I have never bought the argument that lower horsepower cars are momentum cars and somehow this is different from higher horsepower cars. If the goal is to use all of the car's potential, it makes no sense to me that somehow horsepower "rescues you." Sure, there are different types and ranges of skills for different cars (including turbos), but I think once you can drive you can drive.

Now in my thinking, an exception is some of these newer cars with electronic do-dads. I have not driven these cars and I don't know if normal skills can help one deal with how the behave. I have heard that if you drive well, these things will not interfere, but I have no first hand experience.

 

As I transitioned over the years--'68 built-into-911S, '68 into-IROC-wannabe, '79 SC, '74 built-into-widebody w/ 3.5, '73 S (oops, stepped back), '92 C4, '93 RSA, '95 built-into-RS for my primary 911 track/race car, I've not found it particularly hard. I had ZERO skills when I got 911 #1 when I was 18. Didn't wreck it. It was wide-bodied and big-engined by the time I hit the track 3 years later, and I had no problems being the biggest fish in a teeny, tiny pond in Arizona. So, like Mike and Donna (above) who I met 15 years ago now, it's just kinda going out there and driving. There's always a measuring stick out there; someone who's spent more or has more talent and/or stones. Up to you to figure out where your pain threshold lies, I suppose.

 

Here's what I think...

I used to track older Datsun first generation Zcars. Manual steering, a brake booster, and zero driving aids. I always felt like I was wrestling that car around the track. In 2003 I bought a 1999 Corvette and found it to be exceptionally easy to dive in later to corners, wait for abs to kick in, go in later into apexs, let stability control catch my bad manors, and save be from going off in the weeds. I then found myself doing the same thing in the 996TT... Easy to drive fast, and hard to tell if it's the car or the driver, as the driver improves....

Then I damaged the transmission and put the car in the shop to have it repaired... I bought a "tween" car to get me thru events while my 996TT was getting repaired... A 1992 Mazda Miata... And I immediately started flatspotting tires and having OFFS. I hadn't been off track since Spring 2005, and here the first day out in the Miata I was FOUR OFF in TWO sessions back to back...

Driving any car without the modern safety devices is much harder and puts more of the requirements back on the driver. You guys hustling those older aircooled porsches around (And Boston I've been on track at summit with you and Gary, you boys hustle) at the speeds you do says a whole lot about your driving skill and ability, make no bones about it... There are guys in newer hardware (me included) running faster times, (and in my case) not driving as well as you guys!

BRAVO!!!

Mike