Racecraft books and/or videos.......
10-09-2009, 03:48 AM
#46
There's a big difference though in reading about it and actually doing it.
10-09-2009, 08:09 AM
#47
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Books- Barbers is okay. The "Speed Secrets" series by Ross Bentley is more concise and better IMHO.
Seat time is best, as are schools -especially Bondurant, some of the Skippy ones, Roos, and Russell in CA. I would avoid the "Porsche Driving Experience" race schools like the plague.
PCA instructors are mostly bad. Expensive and onoe-on-one pro drivers can be better coaches if you go in with a firm plan and techniques you want to work on.
Just IMHO from years of track ratting.
Seat time is best, as are schools -especially Bondurant, some of the Skippy ones, Roos, and Russell in CA. I would avoid the "Porsche Driving Experience" race schools like the plague.
PCA instructors are mostly bad. Expensive and onoe-on-one pro drivers can be better coaches if you go in with a firm plan and techniques you want to work on.
Just IMHO from years of track ratting.
I don't agree with this at least in our region where we have instructors that are consistent podium club racers; several Grand-Am competitors and winners, an engineer from Penske, and also a current Rolex driver. If your going to get help from a club member, start with a mentor at the races and research the reputation of the faster racers that help out at DE's for in-car coaching. Of course when you have the coin a pro coach will be the ultimate help.
10-09-2009, 10:44 AM
#48
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I agree with Brian P about seat time. I think learning good racecraft comes with experience on the track racing with drivers who are faster than you.
Paolo, a good example of what I am talking about occured when you and I were dicing during the second sprint at SP. I was in front of you on the front straight, but you tucked right in on my bumper and got a terrific draft coming into the braking zone. You moved to the inside, but I went deep into the corner with you, which led to you pushing out on the exit, opening the door for me to counter and cross over back to your inside. By going in deep with you I set up my counter move. We repeated this senario the next lap. If you had gotten your car slowed down enough to keep the inside through turn 1, I would have been on the outside in the marbles and rough surface and had a much harder time trying a counter move to get the position back. You had the inside, so next time, get the car slowed enough to keep the inside line through the corner and force the other guy to either try countering on the outside in the marbles, or concede the pass.
One thing I have learned over the years racing with better drivers is that a lot of the less experienced racers let their guard down after making a pass thinking their work is done, and do not anticipate a counter move at the next opportunity.
Paolo, a good example of what I am talking about occured when you and I were dicing during the second sprint at SP. I was in front of you on the front straight, but you tucked right in on my bumper and got a terrific draft coming into the braking zone. You moved to the inside, but I went deep into the corner with you, which led to you pushing out on the exit, opening the door for me to counter and cross over back to your inside. By going in deep with you I set up my counter move. We repeated this senario the next lap. If you had gotten your car slowed down enough to keep the inside through turn 1, I would have been on the outside in the marbles and rough surface and had a much harder time trying a counter move to get the position back. You had the inside, so next time, get the car slowed enough to keep the inside line through the corner and force the other guy to either try countering on the outside in the marbles, or concede the pass.
One thing I have learned over the years racing with better drivers is that a lot of the less experienced racers let their guard down after making a pass thinking their work is done, and do not anticipate a counter move at the next opportunity.
10-09-2009, 11:03 AM
#50
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FredC's on it... I've tried (and usually failed) to explain to my students (race school, not DE) that passes are usually not accomplished by being faster than the guy in front - at least not the tough passes - that only gets you next to the guy. This is especially true at our home track, which is only 2 cars wide.
Rather, you pass the guy by making him/her have to drive SLOWER than you can.
Of course, it's usually not one of those things that makes sense until you've actually experienced it. Karting on a narrow track is a great place, like Bill pointed out.
And no, this isn't talking about explicit blocking moves - it's about line selection.
But there's no substitute for seat time. Keep racing those guys, and keep getting beat by them. Just make sure you're taking notes...
Rather, you pass the guy by making him/her have to drive SLOWER than you can.
Of course, it's usually not one of those things that makes sense until you've actually experienced it. Karting on a narrow track is a great place, like Bill pointed out.
And no, this isn't talking about explicit blocking moves - it's about line selection.
But there's no substitute for seat time. Keep racing those guys, and keep getting beat by them. Just make sure you're taking notes...
10-09-2009, 11:16 AM
#51
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Thread Starter
I agree with Brian P about seat time. I think learning good racecraft comes with experience on the track racing with drivers who are faster than you.
Paolo, a good example of what I am talking about occured when you and I were dicing during the second sprint at SP. I was in front of you on the front straight, but you tucked right in on my bumper and got a terrific draft coming into the braking zone. You moved to the inside, but I went deep into the corner with you, which led to you pushing out on the exit, opening the door for me to counter and cross over back to your inside. By going in deep with you I set up my counter move. We repeated this senario the next lap. If you had gotten your car slowed down enough to keep the inside through turn 1, I would have been on the outside in the marbles and rough surface and had a much harder time trying a counter move to get the position back. You had the inside, so next time, get the car slowed enough to keep the inside line through the corner and force the other guy to either try countering on the outside in the marbles, or concede the pass.
One thing I have learned over the years racing with better drivers is that a lot of the less experienced racers let their guard down after making a pass thinking their work is done, and do not anticipate a counter move at the next opportunity.
Paolo, a good example of what I am talking about occured when you and I were dicing during the second sprint at SP. I was in front of you on the front straight, but you tucked right in on my bumper and got a terrific draft coming into the braking zone. You moved to the inside, but I went deep into the corner with you, which led to you pushing out on the exit, opening the door for me to counter and cross over back to your inside. By going in deep with you I set up my counter move. We repeated this senario the next lap. If you had gotten your car slowed down enough to keep the inside through turn 1, I would have been on the outside in the marbles and rough surface and had a much harder time trying a counter move to get the position back. You had the inside, so next time, get the car slowed enough to keep the inside line through the corner and force the other guy to either try countering on the outside in the marbles, or concede the pass.
One thing I have learned over the years racing with better drivers is that a lot of the less experienced racers let their guard down after making a pass thinking their work is done, and do not anticipate a counter move at the next opportunity.
I eventually did get by you before the end of the both races..........
10-09-2009, 11:18 AM
#52
King of Cool
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Some of those books are interesting to read but I'm with professor on this.
For example, every time I read about how to correct an oversteer, I get completely lost of what they're talking so I've come to the conclusion that you can't get better/faster in driving by reading. Period.
I mean seriously, I've had my share of sideways driving in snow gravel & asphalt and some people even have said I'm ok with it but what they tell you in those go fast books IMO is complete nonsense. The whole waiting thing in the middle of an slide they talk about, WTF?!
For example, every time I read about how to correct an oversteer, I get completely lost of what they're talking so I've come to the conclusion that you can't get better/faster in driving by reading. Period.
I mean seriously, I've had my share of sideways driving in snow gravel & asphalt and some people even have said I'm ok with it but what they tell you in those go fast books IMO is complete nonsense. The whole waiting thing in the middle of an slide they talk about, WTF?!
10-09-2009, 11:34 AM
#53
Rennlist Member
Yes you did! It was good fun.
10-09-2009, 10:18 PM
#54
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What do they tell you to wait for? The crash?
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Larry Herman
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Larry Herman
2016 Ford Transit Connect Titanium LWB
2018 Tesla Model 3 - Electricity can be fun!
Retired Club Racer & National PCA Instructor
Past Flames:
1994 RS America Club Racer
2004 GT3 Track Car
1984 911 Carrera Club Racer
1974 914/4 2.0 Track Car
CLICK HERE to see some of my ancient racing videos.
10-10-2009, 02:18 AM
#56
Platinum Dealership
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so- read all the books you want. it's worth it at least in the sense that you will have explored the avenue of attempting to learn at the very least. at most- you will have some mental imagery to help you transfer someone else's words or coaching into your own driving eventually.
the senna book isn't exactly gospel for a lot of people and it has to do way more with formula cars (as does the prost book which is similar) but he's got some key phrases that have stuck with me...so I'd say if you've read everything else then go ahead and read his book too.
just as a piece of advice- if you REALLY want to race/improve/go faster- explore every necessary avenue, books are pretty cheap and might help you set up a systematic approach for learning new tracks or car setup or fitness etc but hands on the wheel and feet on the pedals is where you either get it done or not.
10-10-2009, 09:02 AM
#58
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LOL!
I liken this to reading a book on how to pole-vault, or surf, or field-strip an M16. Sure you can read about it. As noted - books are cheap. You'll be lucky to even get it right in the first 10 times, let alone do it well. There's far too much physical activity going on to communicate in writing - this is muscle memory and feeling type stuff.
Maybe a better comparison would be reading to learn how to play basketball...
I liken this to reading a book on how to pole-vault, or surf, or field-strip an M16. Sure you can read about it. As noted - books are cheap. You'll be lucky to even get it right in the first 10 times, let alone do it well. There's far too much physical activity going on to communicate in writing - this is muscle memory and feeling type stuff.
Maybe a better comparison would be reading to learn how to play basketball...
10-10-2009, 10:30 AM
#59
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
in all seriousness- I've read 80-90% of all these "driving" or "racing" books, including his. why? because hey for 12.95 here and there maybe I've got more free time than literally everyone on this board- even while I'm "at work".
so- read all the books you want. it's worth it at least in the sense that you will have explored the avenue of attempting to learn at the very least. at most- you will have some mental imagery to help you transfer someone else's words or coaching into your own driving eventually.
the senna book isn't exactly gospel for a lot of people and it has to do way more with formula cars (as does the prost book which is similar) but he's got some key phrases that have stuck with me...so I'd say if you've read everything else then go ahead and read his book too.
just as a piece of advice- if you REALLY want to race/improve/go faster- explore every necessary avenue, books are pretty cheap and might help you set up a systematic approach for learning new tracks or car setup or fitness etc but hands on the wheel and feet on the pedals is where you either get it done or not.
so- read all the books you want. it's worth it at least in the sense that you will have explored the avenue of attempting to learn at the very least. at most- you will have some mental imagery to help you transfer someone else's words or coaching into your own driving eventually.
the senna book isn't exactly gospel for a lot of people and it has to do way more with formula cars (as does the prost book which is similar) but he's got some key phrases that have stuck with me...so I'd say if you've read everything else then go ahead and read his book too.
just as a piece of advice- if you REALLY want to race/improve/go faster- explore every necessary avenue, books are pretty cheap and might help you set up a systematic approach for learning new tracks or car setup or fitness etc but hands on the wheel and feet on the pedals is where you either get it done or not.
The winters up here are long, thus reading is better than nothing.......
P.S. Any good books on learning how to play baseball?......
