Racecraft books and/or videos.......
10-08-2009, 08:09 PM
#31
Drifting
VR pretty much sums it up..... I wonder how many of the pro's today spent time reading books about racing? I'd bet most had extensive seat time and coaching throughout their development.
10-08-2009, 09:00 PM
#32
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See VR's post (post #4)....
I know little because i have not raced for that long... but as much as race craft can punctually help you finish ahead of others, driving the fastest seems to remain the most sustainable way to finish ahead.... I came to that conclusion after watching Leh Keen at a couple of club races.... Applying it in practice is an entirely different story...
I know little because i have not raced for that long... but as much as race craft can punctually help you finish ahead of others, driving the fastest seems to remain the most sustainable way to finish ahead.... I came to that conclusion after watching Leh Keen at a couple of club races.... Applying it in practice is an entirely different story...
Post #4 has very little to do with the initial question however. While driving fast is one of teh keys to being at the front, I can think of a large number of people who are great racers and can bring a mediocre car forward because they race well.
In Koni Challenge (as well as longer enduros) this is quite obvious, especially at the smaller tracks like Lime Rock. For a large number of the second level drivers in KC it is very easy for them to rattle of a quick lap but in traffic they drop a second or two off the pace and get easily caught out behind lap traffic. The guys that are finishing at the front are only dropping a half second or so off the pace, and sometimes, not coming off their race pace at all. That is racecraft. That is what separates this from Time Attack. That is what I think is the most exhilirating part of driving around on track with a bunch of other hooligans.
This is an example or racing and racecraft. Tom passes multiple faster cars both in class and above class by out racing them. Taking the tough lines at the right time and making it stick.
10-08-2009, 09:02 PM
#33
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Books- Barbers is okay. The "Speed Secrets" series by Ross Bentley is more concise and better IMHO.
Seat time is best, as are schools -especially Bondurant, some of the Skippy ones, Roos, and Russell in CA. I would avoid the "Porsche Driving Experience" race schools like the plague.
PCA instructors are mostly bad. Expensive and onoe-on-one pro drivers can be better coaches if you go in with a firm plan and techniques you want to work on.
Just IMHO from years of track ratting.
Seat time is best, as are schools -especially Bondurant, some of the Skippy ones, Roos, and Russell in CA. I would avoid the "Porsche Driving Experience" race schools like the plague.
PCA instructors are mostly bad. Expensive and onoe-on-one pro drivers can be better coaches if you go in with a firm plan and techniques you want to work on.
Just IMHO from years of track ratting.
10-08-2009, 09:46 PM
#34
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I would rather learn the basics from a well regarded author than just simply jump in my new well prepped ZR1 and race the Glen to gain more "seat time" and ball it up because I don't have the fundamentals........
But than again that is just me.......
10-08-2009, 09:49 PM
#35
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Post #4 has very little to do with the initial question however. While driving fast is one of teh keys to being at the front, I can think of a large number of people who are great racers and can bring a mediocre car forward because they race well.
In Koni Challenge (as well as longer enduros) this is quite obvious, especially at the smaller tracks like Lime Rock. For a large number of the second level drivers in KC it is very easy for them to rattle of a quick lap but in traffic they drop a second or two off the pace and get easily caught out behind lap traffic. The guys that are finishing at the front are only dropping a half second or so off the pace, and sometimes, not coming off their race pace at all. That is racecraft. That is what separates this from Time Attack. That is what I think is the most exhilirating part of driving around on track with a bunch of other hooligans.
This is an example or racing and racecraft. Tom passes multiple faster cars both in class and above class by out racing them. Taking the tough lines at the right time and making it stick.
In Koni Challenge (as well as longer enduros) this is quite obvious, especially at the smaller tracks like Lime Rock. For a large number of the second level drivers in KC it is very easy for them to rattle of a quick lap but in traffic they drop a second or two off the pace and get easily caught out behind lap traffic. The guys that are finishing at the front are only dropping a half second or so off the pace, and sometimes, not coming off their race pace at all. That is racecraft. That is what separates this from Time Attack. That is what I think is the most exhilirating part of driving around on track with a bunch of other hooligans.
This is an example or racing and racecraft. Tom passes multiple faster cars both in class and above class by out racing them. Taking the tough lines at the right time and making it stick.
Joe, you're right. I know Tom Long, and he is very gifted at what you are talking about. However, forgive me for being blunt, but the real non-smartassed answer to Paolo's question is really two-fold:
1) a lot is instinctive, based on seat time, mindset, and brainpower
2) the rest is the intellectual property of racers as well as coaches like Seth and myself...and not likely to get posted on the internet.
Professional Racing and Driving Coach
10-08-2009, 09:52 PM
#36
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Thread Starter
Post #4 has very little to do with the initial question however. While driving fast is one of teh keys to being at the front, I can think of a large number of people who are great racers and can bring a mediocre car forward because they race well.
In Koni Challenge (as well as longer enduros) this is quite obvious, especially at the smaller tracks like Lime Rock. For a large number of the second level drivers in KC it is very easy for them to rattle of a quick lap but in traffic they drop a second or two off the pace and get easily caught out behind lap traffic. The guys that are finishing at the front are only dropping a half second or so off the pace, and sometimes, not coming off their race pace at all. That is racecraft. That is what separates this from Time Attack. That is what I think is the most exhilirating part of driving around on track with a bunch of other hooligans.
In Koni Challenge (as well as longer enduros) this is quite obvious, especially at the smaller tracks like Lime Rock. For a large number of the second level drivers in KC it is very easy for them to rattle of a quick lap but in traffic they drop a second or two off the pace and get easily caught out behind lap traffic. The guys that are finishing at the front are only dropping a half second or so off the pace, and sometimes, not coming off their race pace at all. That is racecraft. That is what separates this from Time Attack. That is what I think is the most exhilirating part of driving around on track with a bunch of other hooligans.
I am half way decent when it comes to qualifying in my class (now that my suspension is fixed), but not so hot in a sprint race.
What I am missing is racecraft, as simple as that .........
10-08-2009, 09:57 PM
#37
Rennlist Member
And IMO (a) you either have it in you or you don't, and (b) one on one guidance and/or coaching can help illustrate if you do, and bring it out if so.
Look, the cream rises to the top in racing as in any other vocation or avocation. Some of it can be taught, some of it is either there or it isn't. JMHO...
Professional Racing and Driving Coach
10-08-2009, 10:01 PM
#38
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I was asking about purchasing a book on the subject.
Read about the basics over the winter and then hire a pro. coach next season............
10-08-2009, 10:04 PM
#39
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Professional Racing and Driving Coach
10-08-2009, 10:11 PM
#40
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Thread Starter
Now that we agree........
do I get a special discount if I read about the basics and hire you and Seth next season?..........
10-08-2009, 10:16 PM
#41
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10-08-2009, 10:44 PM
#42
Basically, as you start battle cars with similar or more horsepower, you are going to have to start defending your line, pass in corners, and do some outrageous **** that you are never even going to consider trying in a DE. You have to have extreme confidence that you can place your car where you want it and hold your line as you go through the corner with your door inches off the door of your competitor.
You aren't going to learn that from a book. You need seat time. A coach will help you work on techniques that will get you that confidence and skill, but ultimately you still need seat time.
There's not much of a short cut.
10-08-2009, 11:17 PM
#43
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I did learn a lot since my first race at LRP this year and by hanging around the "D boys", but I still have a long way to go......
Seat time with good fundamentals and superb coaching will be my strategy for next year.........
BTW, congrats on your win of the Enduro at SP........
10-08-2009, 11:54 PM
#44
Three Wheelin'
A good source to watch racecraft is touring cars, especially BTCC. You can see a lot of strategy and straight up racecraft put to practice.
10-09-2009, 12:16 AM
#45
Burning Brakes
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Sure you can learn all of this racing, and I think the reason there isn't a good book is no one wants to share. Everyone has moves. I'm certainly not going to tell anyone how to pass Todd!!!!