the corvettes looked pretty tough at Mid Ohio
09-01-2009, 05:46 PM
#61
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In addition, I was unaware that WC has HP limits. Can you please cite where in the rule book this is documented? I must have missed it (which is certainly possible).
Mglobe, your surprise surprises me.
Professional Racing and Driving Coach
09-01-2009, 06:02 PM
#62
Rennlist Member
As you know, if you keep it discussion, i keep on topic. For some reason there are those compelled to name call. I am still puzzled by this, but it seems to be accepted here, so be it. You think name calling is ok? you didnt post a respectful guidance post too the one that made the jab and then followed up with his own smilie face post in response to his own post. 
I mentioned the hp/torque figures because they dont pencil out, either on paper or by what we have all seen.
Now, as far as rules for HP limits. I dont remember mentioning any rules. I mentioned the marketing fluff that WCGT, Touring and JGT had , as well as what I feel is equivilant nonsense, the ALMS HP guidance. If you read the WC descriptions, they talk in general about the production based series and their respective HP. With all due respect, you dont really have a place here to judge dialogue being "way out of line". You pushed over those barriers long ago. Are you turning over a new leaf? If so, glad to hear it. Welcome, new VR!
Since you asked:
World Challenge GT/Touring Classes
Grand Touring (GT): The allowed body styles within this class are coupe, sedan and convertible. The cars permitted in GT are typically sold in the market as “sports” cars, “sport-touring” cars, or performance versions of “luxury” cars. Forced induction is permitted on cars that come equipped with forced induction stock, or on cars that SCCA Pro Racing has determined need help reaching the target horsepower range. Power output ranges from 425-525 hp.
Touring Car (TC): The allowed body styles in this class are coupes, hatchbacks, wagons or sedans. The cars permitted in TC are typically sold as “compact” cars, or “touring” cars. Eligible cars must have realistic seating for four (4) adults. Power output ranges from 235 to 275 hp. Weight varies depending on the power output of the individual drivetrain configurations.
I mentioned the hp/torque figures because they dont pencil out, either on paper or by what we have all seen.
Now, as far as rules for HP limits. I dont remember mentioning any rules. I mentioned the marketing fluff that WCGT, Touring and JGT had , as well as what I feel is equivilant nonsense, the ALMS HP guidance. If you read the WC descriptions, they talk in general about the production based series and their respective HP. With all due respect, you dont really have a place here to judge dialogue being "way out of line". You pushed over those barriers long ago. Are you turning over a new leaf? If so, glad to hear it. Welcome, new VR!
Since you asked:
World Challenge GT/Touring Classes
Grand Touring (GT): The allowed body styles within this class are coupe, sedan and convertible. The cars permitted in GT are typically sold in the market as “sports” cars, “sport-touring” cars, or performance versions of “luxury” cars. Forced induction is permitted on cars that come equipped with forced induction stock, or on cars that SCCA Pro Racing has determined need help reaching the target horsepower range. Power output ranges from 425-525 hp.
Touring Car (TC): The allowed body styles in this class are coupes, hatchbacks, wagons or sedans. The cars permitted in TC are typically sold as “compact” cars, or “touring” cars. Eligible cars must have realistic seating for four (4) adults. Power output ranges from 235 to 275 hp. Weight varies depending on the power output of the individual drivetrain configurations.
Mark, that dialogue is way out of line. Come on. As you said, it's a discussion board that rewards those with thicker skins than you are exhibiting, with all due respect. I mean no malice by saying this.
In addition, I was unaware that WC has HP limits. Can you please cite where in the rule book this is documented? I must have missed it (which is certainly possible).
Mglobe, your surprise surprises me.
Professional Racing and Driving Coach
In addition, I was unaware that WC has HP limits. Can you please cite where in the rule book this is documented? I must have missed it (which is certainly possible).
Mglobe, your surprise surprises me.
Professional Racing and Driving Coach
09-01-2009, 06:20 PM
#63
Rennlist Member
As you know, if you keep it discussion, i keep on topic. For some reason there are those compelled to name call. I am still puzzled by this, but it seems to be accepted here, so be it. You think name calling is ok? you didnt post a respectful guidance post too the one that made the jab and then followed up with his own smilie face post in response to his own post.
I mentioned the hp/torque figures because they dont pencil out, either on paper or by what we have all seen.
Now, as far as rules for HP limits. I dont remember mentioning any rules. I mentioned the marketing fluff that WCGT, Touring and JGT had , as well as what I feel is equivilant nonsense, the ALMS HP guidance. If you read the WC descriptions, they talk in general about the production based series and their respective HP. With all due respect, you dont really have a place here to judge dialogue being "way out of line". You pushed over those barriers long ago. Are you turning over a new leaf? If so, glad to hear it. Welcome, new VR!
Since you asked:
World Challenge GT/Touring Classes
Grand Touring (GT): The allowed body styles within this class are coupe, sedan and convertible. The cars permitted in GT are typically sold in the market as “sports” cars, “sport-touring” cars, or performance versions of “luxury” cars. Forced induction is permitted on cars that come equipped with forced induction stock, or on cars that SCCA Pro Racing has determined need help reaching the target horsepower range. Power output ranges from 425-525 hp.
Touring Car (TC): The allowed body styles in this class are coupes, hatchbacks, wagons or sedans. The cars permitted in TC are typically sold as “compact” cars, or “touring” cars. Eligible cars must have realistic seating for four (4) adults. Power output ranges from 235 to 275 hp. Weight varies depending on the power output of the individual drivetrain configurations.
I mentioned the hp/torque figures because they dont pencil out, either on paper or by what we have all seen.
Now, as far as rules for HP limits. I dont remember mentioning any rules. I mentioned the marketing fluff that WCGT, Touring and JGT had , as well as what I feel is equivilant nonsense, the ALMS HP guidance. If you read the WC descriptions, they talk in general about the production based series and their respective HP. With all due respect, you dont really have a place here to judge dialogue being "way out of line". You pushed over those barriers long ago. Are you turning over a new leaf? If so, glad to hear it. Welcome, new VR!
Since you asked:
World Challenge GT/Touring Classes
Grand Touring (GT): The allowed body styles within this class are coupe, sedan and convertible. The cars permitted in GT are typically sold in the market as “sports” cars, “sport-touring” cars, or performance versions of “luxury” cars. Forced induction is permitted on cars that come equipped with forced induction stock, or on cars that SCCA Pro Racing has determined need help reaching the target horsepower range. Power output ranges from 425-525 hp.
Touring Car (TC): The allowed body styles in this class are coupes, hatchbacks, wagons or sedans. The cars permitted in TC are typically sold as “compact” cars, or “touring” cars. Eligible cars must have realistic seating for four (4) adults. Power output ranges from 235 to 275 hp. Weight varies depending on the power output of the individual drivetrain configurations.
Bryan did not call you a name. That is my last comment on the matter.
As for HP figures, I have always treated marketing spiel as having the same value as the paper on which it is printed, and nothing more. Gnome saying?
Professional Racing and Driving Coach
09-01-2009, 06:43 PM
#64
Burning Brakes
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The ALMS series and ACO required a method to equalize the competition.The governing powers concluded a simple horsepower to weight standard wouldn't work.
That's why they came up with the " Engine Equivalences" method which is,
at best, very difficult to understand.
Then, the rules are written in French, subject to interpretation.
For most of us, who are "simple minded", we fall back on old standards using methods such as engine horsepower and torque vs. weight to try and handicap (you know... place your wager) the competitors.One example that changes the way we evaluate different engines,
that NO one's yet mentioned is the different fuels being used.
Depending on the fuel, this allows timing maps with much more spark advance.
Trying to explain this to those who have their minds made up and simply want to accuse various teams of "Cheating", seems to be a waste of time. IMO... Now would be a good time for the moderator's to lock this thread.
09-01-2009, 06:52 PM
#65
Rennlist Member
Dave,
Yes, Bryan did blurt out a name. That's ok, its a fact and on my reply.
Its really funny, its just what I was talking about. the marketing spiel is NOT worth the value of the paper or the internet page it comes from, I totally agree. AND, coincidentally enough, thats what i was talking about in this thread in how they are setting up or regulating the Vet for GT2 competition. As you can see from their "marketing" specs, the car will not have 470hp and 535torque. I just provided the graphs, for giggles, but it seems no one wants to laugh today!
Yes, Bryan did blurt out a name. That's ok, its a fact and on my reply.
Its really funny, its just what I was talking about. the marketing spiel is NOT worth the value of the paper or the internet page it comes from, I totally agree. AND, coincidentally enough, thats what i was talking about in this thread in how they are setting up or regulating the Vet for GT2 competition. As you can see from their "marketing" specs, the car will not have 470hp and 535torque. I just provided the graphs, for giggles, but it seems no one wants to laugh today!
Mark, I am not gonna argue this with you on any sort of tit for tat basis. (moderators, am I allowed to say "tit" here?)
Bryan did not call you a name. That is my last comment on the matter.
As for HP figures, I have always treated marketing spiel as having the same value as the paper on which it is printed, and nothing more. Gnome saying?
Professional Racing and Driving Coach
Bryan did not call you a name. That is my last comment on the matter.
As for HP figures, I have always treated marketing spiel as having the same value as the paper on which it is printed, and nothing more. Gnome saying?
Professional Racing and Driving Coach
09-01-2009, 07:00 PM
#66
Rennlist Member
I'm sorry Trumper, you must have misunderstood what I was saying or pointing out. Ill say it again just in case you missed it. I dont think the ALMS Vet team is cheating, I think, as VR-Dave has pointed out, that the HP figures are not really accurate and very confusing. (especially these in our discussion) And, furthermore, you have mentioned that the real rule makers are using an "Engine Equivalent "system that we are not allowed to know or review. I was only pointing out how strange the HP and Torque ratings were as listed from the marketing information we all did get to see in print.
They look like diesel engine specs.
That's all, nothing more or less.
Now, you have a nice day.
Oh, and use the torque hp curve I provided to plug in your own numbers of what you think the ALMS GT2 vet will have as far as HP and Torque.
mk
The ALMS series and ACO required a method to equalize the competition.
The governing powers concluded a simple horsepower to weight standard wouldn't work.
That's why they came up with the " Engine Equivalences" method which is,
at best, very difficult to understand.
Then, the rules are written in French, subject to interpretation.
For most of us, who are "simple minded", we fall back on old standards using methods such as engine horsepower and torque vs. weight to try and handicap (you know... place your wager) the competitors.
One example that changes the way we evaluate different engines,
that NO one's yet mentioned is the different fuels being used.
Depending on the fuel, this allows timing maps with much more spark advance.
Trying to explain this to those who have their minds made up and simply want to accuse various teams of "Cheating", seems to be a waste of time.
They look like diesel engine specs.
That's all, nothing more or less.
Now, you have a nice day.
Oh, and use the torque hp curve I provided to plug in your own numbers of what you think the ALMS GT2 vet will have as far as HP and Torque.
mk
The ALMS series and ACO required a method to equalize the competition.The governing powers concluded a simple horsepower to weight standard wouldn't work.
That's why they came up with the " Engine Equivalences" method which is,
at best, very difficult to understand.
Then, the rules are written in French, subject to interpretation.
For most of us, who are "simple minded", we fall back on old standards using methods such as engine horsepower and torque vs. weight to try and handicap (you know... place your wager) the competitors.One example that changes the way we evaluate different engines,
that NO one's yet mentioned is the different fuels being used.
Depending on the fuel, this allows timing maps with much more spark advance.
Trying to explain this to those who have their minds made up and simply want to accuse various teams of "Cheating", seems to be a waste of time. Last edited by mark kibort; 09-01-2009 at 08:59 PM.
09-01-2009, 08:01 PM
#67
The Penguin King
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I'm happy to see BMW, Porsche, Ferrari, and Chevy all competing in real, non-tube-frame cars, and I was hoping for a discussion about that. I just didn't bother to look at who had posted in the thread.
09-01-2009, 10:02 PM
#68
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09-02-2009, 09:15 AM
#70
Burning Brakes
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It's GREAT to see some real competition in GT2. We can add Jaguar and possibly Audi to this group too. ALMS will be juggling the rules (handicapping the front runners) to put on a good show. Let's hope they don't go too far in their attempt to get a "dead heat" finish.
Johny O Connell said the biggest change in The GT2 Corvettes from the GT1 class is "Down-force", making the cars a lot more FUN to drive.
09-02-2009, 10:41 AM
#71
Rennlist Member
What did they change on the GT2 Vet to make it more of a "downforce" car vs the GT1 version?
In reality, it seems that the car is less of a downforce car, so yes downforce has chanced to have LESS of it and probably makes it more predictable to drive Was that what J.O. was talking about?
In reality, it seems that the car is less of a downforce car, so yes downforce has chanced to have LESS of it and probably makes it more predictable to drive
Was that what J.O. was talking about?
09-02-2009, 10:52 AM
#72
Drifting
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No, Johnny O was probably not commenting on it being more predictable to drive, but rather that it is more fun to drive because it can now be slid more and driven at large yaw angles as compared to it's more aero dependent predecessor.
09-02-2009, 11:03 AM
#73
Rennlist Member
"More mechanical grip" = less downforce, smaller tires, more weight, narrower foot print? Oh, the announcers said it. That says it right there. Now, if its true, that would be very interesting to hear why.
Now, if its true, that would be very interesting to hear why.Yes. The car obviously has less downforce. The announcers even commented that Corvette has told them the GT2 car makes more mechanical grip than the GT1 car did. Hard to believe, but perhaps true.
No, Johnny O was probably not commenting on it being more predictable to drive, but rather that it is more fun to drive because it can now be slid more and driven at large yaw angles as compared to it's more aero dependent predecessor.
No, Johnny O was probably not commenting on it being more predictable to drive, but rather that it is more fun to drive because it can now be slid more and driven at large yaw angles as compared to it's more aero dependent predecessor.
09-02-2009, 11:12 AM
#74
Drifting
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Less downforce just means that a larger percentage of the overall grip is mechanical. The announcers seemed to indicate that Corvette has said the GT2 car makes more OVERALL mechanical grip, without relation to downforce. The tires are actually exactly the same between the current GT2 and the old GT1 car...they expect to find more mechanical grip after they develop a tire for this specific car.
09-02-2009, 11:26 AM
#75
Rennlist Member
Possibly, they can use a softer suspension, without the tremendous force of the extra aero the GT1 car had, thus providing more mechanical grip. The GT2 Vet might use the same tires, but I was under the impression that the car was narrower, not that the tires were any different. Width and ride hight are big factors of mechanical grip.
Less downforce just means that a larger percentage of the overall grip is mechanical. The announcers seemed to indicate that Corvette has said the GT2 car makes more OVERALL mechanical grip, without relation to downforce. The tires are actually exactly the same between the current GT2 and the old GT1 car...they expect to find more mechanical grip after they develop a tire for this specific car.