Bryan Watts

wanna911

Oh yeah I'm sure strategy and pit effectiveness had nothing to do with that, as well as the first two cars ending up with problems.

Need I explain what clearly faster means?

Bryan Watts

Nope, there's no need for you to share any more of your "wisdom" with us.

mark kibort

I thought it was funny when the announcers, as usual predicted the performance of the vet off of a particular turn vs the ferrari. off the turn and down the straight, the ferrari just motored away. Mello did quite a number on the vet the day before, and they made a new car out of it, by tearing parts off the Lemans winning car. Sad! But, amazing work! The vets looked very tough, the flying lizard had no chance after its crash into the BMW when the P2 car lost it on that turn exit, stacking them all up behind while they were probably all full throttle. So, Road America will be interesting. Im surprised that another Viper 8.4 liter, hasnt entered and done better in the competition.
Does anyone know how close the ALMS GT2 vet is to the WC GT vet as far as HP? Sounds like they are using the same engine, but not the one that K-tech builds. of course, the ALMS car is running a little lighter as well (3100lbs vs 2750lbs and DOTs vs slicks)
That Bmmer looked great too. Pretty interesting series now. Look forward to RA.

mark kibort

who here believes that if the GT1 vet was put on a dyno that it would put out 400hp?

Who also believes that the old ALMS vet ran against Turbo NSX boy at Laguna down the main straight, that it wouldnt be able to pull out and run around the 650rwhp NSX at near the same weight?

I think they should have a Dyno -Off before every race. That would be interesting to watch too!!

multi21

+1

Maybe the 'Vette drivers are too old

Wait for it, Dez is looking for another excuse...

Alan G.

Give up on that arguement.

wanna911

The best corvette qualified 4th with the series leader handicapped due to a crash, I don't call that clearly faster than really anyone.

hacker-pschorr

I'm sure anything is possible, what's your point?

John Buttermore set a new T1 lap record at Road America on Saturday turning a 2.23.18 in a LS2 Powered C6 Corvette with a race weight of 3,280lbs (with driver) on Hoosier A6's.

Not related to this thread, then again neither was your post

http://sccaforums.com/forums/permali...ad.aspx#376756

mark kibort

It was related, based on a post Iceman made, so relax. And,its related to the subject, because the Vets did look good this weekend, and HP is a big part of their performance. I just wonder what it "really" is, and dont believe that they are 400rwhp now.

to your unrelated post, 2:23 is moving, for sure. Thats like Anderson before the big motor changes!

What are those T1s making now as far as HP.

3280lbs race weight? thats not that much (is that without driver?), considering the times the GT2 cars will spin probably being in the 2:08 range when they run Road America.

I always like to remember the audis witih "stock" engines running 2:14 on toyos with 275lbs added to their 3200lb spec weight in WCGT.

trumperZ06

[QUOTE=mark kibort;6863724]It was related, based on a post Iceman made, so relax. And,its related to the subject, because the Vets did look good this weekend, and HP is a big part of their performance. I just wonder what it "really" is, and dont believe that they are 400rwhp now.

Hey Kibort, still pushing Bad Information.


What have you been smoking ???


Remember the wisdom from VR...

It's all in the Torque !!!


Corvette's de-stroked 7 liter engine is from the current GT1 C6R block...

not an LS7....

and is now down to 6 liters.



GM's Corvette engine certainly passes the ALMS GT2 horsepower requirements !!!

Forget Andy Pilgrim's Cadillac/Sebring escapade from a few years ago.
That was a different brand, different series.



In fact... the 6 liter engine is rated at:

470 hp @ 4800 rpm

535 torque (lb-ft) @ 4500 rpm.


The new engine block for 2010...

will be 5.5 liters, power ratings TBD !!!

mark kibort

What bad information? Don't follow's VR's very generalized lead on torque, you might confuse yourself, expecially when comparing different rpm based motors. Besides, I didnt even mention torque. Even if the 6 liter had higher torque, (remember from the discussion) it might actually have the exact same "torque" at the rear wheels at ANY speed off ANY turn. Now, remember I said "might". Thats not the point. The point is, do these destroked LS7 have 470 rated HP which would be near 400rwhp? I serously doubt it and thats the discussion. As we all have seen, the porsche RSRs from a few years ago can run up to 440rwhp!!
(By the way, 535rwt at 4500rpm would put out the same torque to the wheels with a RSRs at 9000rpm at 267rwt. At that point, both would be pumping out 458rwhp)

FYI , the most Hp any engine can make is a flat Hp curve. 400 rwhp is about 470 flywheel . Flat Hp or not , does anyone think the vet makes 400 rwhp?
(regardless of torque)

Now, the Caddilac ran this same block at 6 liters as well. I have pictures of the block saying "7 liter" but it was detuned to be 6 liter. It was running well over 500hp with stock intake manifolds.

Now, with your quote for the HP and torque rating, you mention that the 6 liter engine makes 535torque and 470hp at 4800rpm. if so, and they were shifting at a little beyond 4800rpm, then they would have a near flat HP curve. certainly an advantage vs a peaky hp curve of the porsche or ferrari. (but they make up for that with close ratio, no lift upshift gears.)

so, what you are saying is that if the vet has a flat HP curve (i.e. lots of torque) then, it will have a higher average HP in the end over its range, and that would be right. so, if its 470 average, it would take a 525hp-425hp at post shift point competitor to equal the power.(or 440rwhp down to 360rwhp ) That example might be what we are looking at. However, with the close ratio gears of the RSR, I dont think it loses that much. Plus, I have no idea what the restrictor power of the RSR is these days. They all look pretty even but their performance and weight down the straights sure point to a little more than 400rwhp even if it is a flat HP curve!

Now what have I been smokin? what have you been smokin if you think the new vets only make 400rwhp, even if it was 400rwhp from 4000rpm to 60000rpm, which is the MAX any engine can make over an operational range, and would be the max amount of rear wheel torque possible!

mk


[QUOTE=trumperZ06;6863993]

trumperZ06

Mark,

What part of... Corvette GT2 is running a de-stroked 6.0 liter C6R block eludes you?

The LS6 block you referenced is ~ 5.7 liters and was used in the C5 Z06.

As I have already stated... it is NOT the LS7 block (7 liter) from the current C6 Z06.

Nor is it a de-stroked Katech 7.0 liter engine (although it uses the same block) which was in the Corvette GT1.

These Katech GT1 engines could put out well over 700 hp. non-restricted.

Andy Pilgrim's 6.0 liter CADDY ENGINE put out ~ 600 hp.,
it would wind to ~ 8000 rpm.

Again a different engine (although the same basic C6R block) than what is in Corvette's GT2.

After Sebring, the Caddy's power was decreased:
air restrictors were changed and the ECU was modified to reduce its rpm to ~7000 rpm.

The Corvette GT2 6.0 liter engine is designed to produce torque over horsepower... but once again the reason seems to elude your comprehension.

You keep saying "You seriously doubt that the engine output is ~400 rwhp.", implying Corvette's cheating and the GT2 is NOT meeting the regulations.

It's obvious from your posts you haven't the knowledge nor the facts to make that accusation!

It's reasonable to conclude Corvette is being very careful to insure they meet ALL the current regulations with their current GT2.

Corvette is NOT running for the championship this year.

Next year, a new 5.5 liter block will be in Corvette's GT2 and that engine will likely have similar output to the current 6.0 liter engine.

Please quit mucking up Corvette data, and enjoy the ALMS GT2 competition.

mark kibort

Hey, lets discuss, and dont read more into what im saying than I am

Ill say it again. The caddies ran the 7 liter bock that was reduced to 6 liters.

agree?

when did I ever reference a LS6 5.7 liter? that hasnt been run for years in WCGT. (edit: sorry, i did put "LS6", i ment to say destroked LS7 )

Yes, Im glad you agree that the caddie engine was 600hp+ . They did implement at restrictor and rev limit. by the way, it was interesting to see that restrictor in action at sears in '05. mcclure saw less than 1mph less down the main straight. (radar by the SpeedGT officials)

Now, it seems we both understand that the GT2 engine for the vet, still uses the same block , but is a different engine. I agree.

torque over HP? Now are you not undersanding the very basic concepts of what you are saying here? that just means a flatter HP curve? that means you get more average HP over an operational range. thats it . very simple. If you doubt this, just ask someone knowledgable and they will explain it for you.

I fullly understand the effects of torque in the HP equation. Still, if a corvette in GT2 is making 470hp, and even if it has extremely high torque, it cannot make more than 470hp at any point? get it? this means its rear wheel hp might be 400 and would be 400 at any point in the use curve. That cant get the car to run a 1:26 at laguna, sorry! WCGT run 1:30s in race time, and have more than 440rwhp with a restrictor:

WC GT Vet on the dyno making 440rwhp with restrictor:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CA0Wh...eature=related


I dont know how they restricted the 6 liter from the 7 liter block to make 470max hp or its real max hp at 4800rpm. maybe there is a rev limiter at 4800rpm or something. that surely would do it. they are hanging with the GT3RS and Ferrari pretty easily, so they at least have their HP to the wheels, expecially since they have to weigh more.

Now, I am enjoying the GT2 competition, thank you. Im am discussing the fact that the specs seemed to be skewed. Its not in the actual rule what the HP is, its in the marketing fluff. I dont think the C6R that ran in GT1 puts out 590hp either. that thing was a beast. look no farther than the spec of the P2 and the C6R and work the HP/weigth ratios. They were both pretty even on the straights. It seems the HP figures the ALMS marketing folks are quoting are rear wheel hp in my opinion. Thats it.


Here is a stock F430 ferrari street car with a set of headers making 450rwhp. I have to imagine that the vet is making this kind of power.

Edit: And if you want to know how ODD, 530ft-lbs of torque and 470hp looks on a dyno run, here you go. the only way the curves would work in ALMS GT2, is if they had a rev limiter at 4800rpm (i.e. to limit max HP to 470hp)
notice you could have the max torque at 4500 of 520+ torque, and at 4800rpm as quoted in the rules, 470hp. This is why I challenge the numbers. They are extremely awkward. Look at the lower HP/torque values. Also, keep in mind that if these curves were achievable by the 6 liter, it has NO advantage over a stock high reving Ferrari motor at ANY point on the track, even if they used the same gear spacing. This is my point.

Now my question, do these data points ELUDE YOUR "comprehension" ?

Bryan Watts

Professional Internet Racer strikes again!