where would my 3.4L 996 fit in SCCA club racing?
08-03-2009, 04:01 PM
#61
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And thats where Mike was getting confused. It's (what you have Carlos) a stock 996, with its stockish engine that came with the car, so, you are GT3 in PCA and in PRC. there are no mod restrictions, but in PCA, they are playing with weight restrictions. Yes, I think the confusion that I had was I didnt know you called all the 996, boxter engines, "boxter" engines. 
mk
mk
08-03-2009, 04:12 PM
#62
Rennlist Member
By definition, yes, but in reality, we have had some of the closest racing around. when was the last time there was 4-5 cars that all exchanged the lead in a race with PRC or PCA? this doesnt happen a lot, but for some reason, the "run what you brung" crowd has had some close racing. (ignore the recent $200+k griggs mustang and NSX turbo) If you are running 2:00 at Thill, you would fit right into a group of about 4-5 cars all running near the same times, along with a 2:01.xx spec 911 that shows up to most events. (B. Soonwalla sp?). With this next Sept Laguna event, the Northwest porsche guys are coming down, as well as the usual suspects. Vipers, vets, bmws, mustangs, S2000s, and a bunch of porsches. Its always a good time and some close racing. Plus, none of the nasty sound things to really worry about (103db allowed)
Ill try and bring my car to t-hill, but worst case, Ill be up there to help out the club.
Ill try and bring my car to t-hill, but worst case, Ill be up there to help out the club.
08-04-2009, 12:57 AM
#63
Three Wheelin'
I don't make the rules for PRC, I write the rules. We have a committee that makes the decisions and there is a period for input and discussion. PRC racers self-declare their classes. From time to time, I encourage everyone to class their cares carefully and properly, especially as they are just getting started.
I don't think the PRC rules are vague. We have a GT3 class with clear language, and a GTA class with clear language.
The PCA index of performance table has me a little confused because they use the term 986 engine. To me, Porsche engine types are referred to by M numbers, for example as Peter Smith pointed out on the PRC forums, or by the type of car they come in. Thus, I took the PCA index of performance table language to mean to cover chassis with engines developed from Boxster production car engines, not to mean "all wet sump, water-cooled flat sixes," which appears to be the understanding of others. When I read the initial {CA 2009 description of changes, this is still confusing, so no wonder it is confusing in their table. Here is the language that has me confused:
"Allow GT-type cars with Boxster-based water-cooled motors in 993 or earlier chassis into GT, rather than GTP, and class in accordance with the GT formula for theoretical horsepower and weight."
It doesn't say "any Porsche chassis," it says "993 or earlier chassis."
My understanding was, and still is that Carlos' motor is developed from a 996 street car motor, and I have known all along about wet versus dry sump.
Under PRC current rules, if PCA would say that Carlos' car is GTA, then it is GTA with PRC. If GTB, then GTA with PRC. If GT3, then GT3 with PRC.
There are a lot of differences between PRC and PCA rules. For example, we have no 13-13 whatsoever. This is driven by a general desire to keep things simpler and based on the cars actually showing up to race. It is also driven by the fact that most events each year on the PRC schedule have been run under NASA sanction.
There will always be Porsche racers that want some other type of experience... whether they want mixed marque racing, driving only twice a day, hanging out with the husband and the group with which he races, or whatever. That's great. Since we are not a business or even a club, we aren't trying to participate in some type of competition with other groups, or reach goals with respect to participation in different classes.
The NASA GTS program out west appears to be trying to gather some steam... and I think I know what NASA's motivation is for pushing it to expand. Hopefully they will be successful. They are a business. PRC is just a loose collection of like-minded folks acting in a collective and collaborative way.
I don't think the PRC rules are vague. We have a GT3 class with clear language, and a GTA class with clear language.
The PCA index of performance table has me a little confused because they use the term 986 engine. To me, Porsche engine types are referred to by M numbers, for example as Peter Smith pointed out on the PRC forums, or by the type of car they come in. Thus, I took the PCA index of performance table language to mean to cover chassis with engines developed from Boxster production car engines, not to mean "all wet sump, water-cooled flat sixes," which appears to be the understanding of others. When I read the initial {CA 2009 description of changes, this is still confusing, so no wonder it is confusing in their table. Here is the language that has me confused:
"Allow GT-type cars with Boxster-based water-cooled motors in 993 or earlier chassis into GT, rather than GTP, and class in accordance with the GT formula for theoretical horsepower and weight."
It doesn't say "any Porsche chassis," it says "993 or earlier chassis."
My understanding was, and still is that Carlos' motor is developed from a 996 street car motor, and I have known all along about wet versus dry sump.
Under PRC current rules, if PCA would say that Carlos' car is GTA, then it is GTA with PRC. If GTB, then GTA with PRC. If GT3, then GT3 with PRC.
There are a lot of differences between PRC and PCA rules. For example, we have no 13-13 whatsoever. This is driven by a general desire to keep things simpler and based on the cars actually showing up to race. It is also driven by the fact that most events each year on the PRC schedule have been run under NASA sanction.
There will always be Porsche racers that want some other type of experience... whether they want mixed marque racing, driving only twice a day, hanging out with the husband and the group with which he races, or whatever. That's great. Since we are not a business or even a club, we aren't trying to participate in some type of competition with other groups, or reach goals with respect to participation in different classes.
The NASA GTS program out west appears to be trying to gather some steam... and I think I know what NASA's motivation is for pushing it to expand. Hopefully they will be successful. They are a business. PRC is just a loose collection of like-minded folks acting in a collective and collaborative way.
08-04-2009, 01:40 AM
#64
Rennlist Member
Mike, am I missing something, or are you (or am I) confusting the boxster engine transplant in a 993 (remember, 993s have the last of the air cooled 3.4 liters) not, a stock 996 with its stock "boxster type" engine that came with the car? as far as I can tell, the 996 with 3.4 liter engine is GT-3 by pca or prc classing.
I don't make the rules for PRC, I write the rules. We have a committee that makes the decisions and there is a period for input and discussion. PRC racers self-declare their classes. From time to time, I encourage everyone to class their cares carefully and properly, especially as they are just getting started.
I don't think the PRC rules are vague. We have a GT3 class with clear language, and a GTA class with clear language.
The PCA index of performance table has me a little confused because they use the term 986 engine. To me, Porsche engine types are referred to by M numbers, for example as Peter Smith pointed out on the PRC forums, or by the type of car they come in. Thus, I took the PCA index of performance table language to mean to cover chassis with engines developed from Boxster production car engines, not to mean "all wet sump, water-cooled flat sixes," which appears to be the understanding of others. When I read the initial {CA 2009 description of changes, this is still confusing, so no wonder it is confusing in their table. Here is the language that has me confused:
"Allow GT-type cars with Boxster-based water-cooled motors in 993 or earlier chassis into GT, rather than GTP, and class in accordance with the GT formula for theoretical horsepower and weight."
It doesn't say "any Porsche chassis," it says "993 or earlier chassis."
My understanding was, and still is that Carlos' motor is developed from a 996 street car motor, and I have known all along about wet versus dry sump.
Under PRC current rules, if PCA would say that Carlos' car is GTA, then it is GTA with PRC. If GTB, then GTA with PRC. If GT3, then GT3 with PRC.
There are a lot of differences between PRC and PCA rules. For example, we have no 13-13 whatsoever. This is driven by a general desire to keep things simpler and based on the cars actually showing up to race. It is also driven by the fact that most events each year on the PRC schedule have been run under NASA sanction.
There will always be Porsche racers that want some other type of experience... whether they want mixed marque racing, driving only twice a day, hanging out with the husband and the group with which he races, or whatever. That's great. Since we are not a business or even a club, we aren't trying to participate in some type of competition with other groups, or reach goals with respect to participation in different classes.
The NASA GTS program out west appears to be trying to gather some steam... and I think I know what NASA's motivation is for pushing it to expand. Hopefully they will be successful. They are a business. PRC is just a loose collection of like-minded folks acting in a collective and collaborative way.
I don't think the PRC rules are vague. We have a GT3 class with clear language, and a GTA class with clear language.
The PCA index of performance table has me a little confused because they use the term 986 engine. To me, Porsche engine types are referred to by M numbers, for example as Peter Smith pointed out on the PRC forums, or by the type of car they come in. Thus, I took the PCA index of performance table language to mean to cover chassis with engines developed from Boxster production car engines, not to mean "all wet sump, water-cooled flat sixes," which appears to be the understanding of others. When I read the initial {CA 2009 description of changes, this is still confusing, so no wonder it is confusing in their table. Here is the language that has me confused:
"Allow GT-type cars with Boxster-based water-cooled motors in 993 or earlier chassis into GT, rather than GTP, and class in accordance with the GT formula for theoretical horsepower and weight."
It doesn't say "any Porsche chassis," it says "993 or earlier chassis."
My understanding was, and still is that Carlos' motor is developed from a 996 street car motor, and I have known all along about wet versus dry sump.
Under PRC current rules, if PCA would say that Carlos' car is GTA, then it is GTA with PRC. If GTB, then GTA with PRC. If GT3, then GT3 with PRC.
There are a lot of differences between PRC and PCA rules. For example, we have no 13-13 whatsoever. This is driven by a general desire to keep things simpler and based on the cars actually showing up to race. It is also driven by the fact that most events each year on the PRC schedule have been run under NASA sanction.
There will always be Porsche racers that want some other type of experience... whether they want mixed marque racing, driving only twice a day, hanging out with the husband and the group with which he races, or whatever. That's great. Since we are not a business or even a club, we aren't trying to participate in some type of competition with other groups, or reach goals with respect to participation in different classes.
The NASA GTS program out west appears to be trying to gather some steam... and I think I know what NASA's motivation is for pushing it to expand. Hopefully they will be successful. They are a business. PRC is just a loose collection of like-minded folks acting in a collective and collaborative way.
08-04-2009, 02:05 AM
#65
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08-04-2009, 02:53 AM
#66
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Carlos, I just went to the rule book. I remember starting at the POC book for hours calculatiing where my car would fit, while PCA rules took 1 min to understand. So, to Mike's defence, the rules do kind of point out that they dont want any 996s running in GT classes. SO, read this from the PCA rule book:
CLASSES
The SUPER CLASSES - GTA, GTB, GT-1 thru GT-6 and GTP-1 thru GTP-6 - include all those
Porsches which have been modified so that they no longer meet the requirements for “STOCK” or “PREPARED” cars,
divided as follows:
Class GTA
996 or later factory race cars with normally-aspirated motors and other 996/997-based cars not meeting the requirements
of the Stock, Prepared or GTC Classes. Tires are free.
GTA1: 996 factory race cars or cars with 996 R/RS/RSR engines. Maximum displacement is 3.8L. Minimum weight
for this class shall be 2700 pounds including driver.
GTA2: 997 factory race cars or cars with 997 RSR factory race motors and other 997-based cars Maximum displacement
is 4.0L. Minimum weight shall be 2750 pounds including driver.
Class GTB
Normally aspirated 996 or later 911 model (excluding GT3) production street cars modified beyond the requirements for
“STOCK” or “PREPARED” cars that have an unmodified production engine, transmission and gears, ECU, and chassis.
Suspension components must remain stock except that GT3 or GT3 Cup lower control arms and GT3 adjustable rear toe
links are allowed. Bodywork changes are limited to those found on a GT3 Cup; if a wing is used it must be a GT3 wing or
factory non-extended GT3 Cup wing. Springs, shocks, and camber plates are free. Other GT modifications are allowed.
See table below for minimum weights by model and engine.
Model Year Engine HP Weight
Ratio
(lb/hp)
996 99-01 3.4L 300 2750 9.17
996 02-05 3.6L 320 2850 8.91
996 All 3.6L X51 345 2975 8.62
997 05-08 3.6L 325 2950 9.08
997 09 3.6L 345 3025 8.77
997 05-08 3.8L 355 3050 8.59
997 All 3.8L X51 381 3175 8.33
997 09 3.8L 385 3175 8.25
Then:
Classes GT-1 through GT-6
GT cars will be classified by calculating a “performance index.” The performance index applies the same principle of
classification as used for the stock classes, which is weight/horsepower. The formula is:
Performance Index = (Weight/[Displacement x Horsepower/Liter for engine type]) x 100
There are 14 engine types. Displacement in the formula is the exact displacement of the motor to the nearest thousandth
of a liter. The weight in the formula includes car, driver and driver gear. The table below provides the HP/L for your
engine type to calculate the Performance Index for your car:
Engine Type HP/L
4 cyl air cooled 90
4 cyl air cooled turbo 150
6 cyl air cooled 110
6 cyl air cooled turbo 210
4 cyl 2 valve water cooled 100
4 cyl 2 valve water cooled turbo 200
4 cyl 4 valve water cooled 125
4 cyl 4 valve water cooled turbo 230
6 cyl 986-based (in any chassis) 135
6 cyl water cooled turbo (any chassis) 240
8 cyl 2 valve 90
8 cyl 2 valve turbo 145
8 cyl 4 valve 100
8 cyl 4 valve turbo 165
Classification is as follows:
Performance Index Class
425 and below GT-1 R/S
426 to 550 GT-2 R/S
551 to 675 GT-3 R/S
676 to 825 GT-4 R/S
826 to 975 GT-5 R/S
976 and above GT-6 R/S
• It is permissible to add ballast to change one class only. Ballast is defined as removable weight bolted into the car
solely to achieve a target weight. Ballast may be placed anywhere in the car so long as it is appropriately and
adequately secured.
• Classes are further subdivided by tire type for cars on race tires and cars on DOT approved street tires, designated
“R” and “S” respectively.
• GT class, engine displacement, engine type and minimum weight must be written in the car’s log book
It looks like they dont want any non stock, prepared 996 or later chassis running in GT1-6 and I dont know why that is. It seems they (PCA) want them to run in a class called GTB, so that is what mike is talking about. since there is no GTB in PCA, they lump all them in to the GTA class.
986 motors only went to 3.2 liter and then in '07 they had the 3.4 version, but it was in the next gen which was called the 987. So, I guess if you put a 986 engine (3.2 liter) in your 996, you can run in GT3-4 or something.
very unclear! (but its clearer now)
Have fun!
Mark
PS, your choice is GTA with prc, or run GTS-x class, or run with SCCA ITE
CLASSES
The SUPER CLASSES - GTA, GTB, GT-1 thru GT-6 and GTP-1 thru GTP-6 - include all those
Porsches which have been modified so that they no longer meet the requirements for “STOCK” or “PREPARED” cars,
divided as follows:
Class GTA
996 or later factory race cars with normally-aspirated motors and other 996/997-based cars not meeting the requirements
of the Stock, Prepared or GTC Classes. Tires are free.
GTA1: 996 factory race cars or cars with 996 R/RS/RSR engines. Maximum displacement is 3.8L. Minimum weight
for this class shall be 2700 pounds including driver.
GTA2: 997 factory race cars or cars with 997 RSR factory race motors and other 997-based cars Maximum displacement
is 4.0L. Minimum weight shall be 2750 pounds including driver.
Class GTB
Normally aspirated 996 or later 911 model (excluding GT3) production street cars modified beyond the requirements for
“STOCK” or “PREPARED” cars that have an unmodified production engine, transmission and gears, ECU, and chassis.
Suspension components must remain stock except that GT3 or GT3 Cup lower control arms and GT3 adjustable rear toe
links are allowed. Bodywork changes are limited to those found on a GT3 Cup; if a wing is used it must be a GT3 wing or
factory non-extended GT3 Cup wing. Springs, shocks, and camber plates are free. Other GT modifications are allowed.
See table below for minimum weights by model and engine.
Model Year Engine HP Weight
Ratio
(lb/hp)
996 99-01 3.4L 300 2750 9.17
996 02-05 3.6L 320 2850 8.91
996 All 3.6L X51 345 2975 8.62
997 05-08 3.6L 325 2950 9.08
997 09 3.6L 345 3025 8.77
997 05-08 3.8L 355 3050 8.59
997 All 3.8L X51 381 3175 8.33
997 09 3.8L 385 3175 8.25
Then:
Classes GT-1 through GT-6
GT cars will be classified by calculating a “performance index.” The performance index applies the same principle of
classification as used for the stock classes, which is weight/horsepower. The formula is:
Performance Index = (Weight/[Displacement x Horsepower/Liter for engine type]) x 100
There are 14 engine types. Displacement in the formula is the exact displacement of the motor to the nearest thousandth
of a liter. The weight in the formula includes car, driver and driver gear. The table below provides the HP/L for your
engine type to calculate the Performance Index for your car:
Engine Type HP/L
4 cyl air cooled 90
4 cyl air cooled turbo 150
6 cyl air cooled 110
6 cyl air cooled turbo 210
4 cyl 2 valve water cooled 100
4 cyl 2 valve water cooled turbo 200
4 cyl 4 valve water cooled 125
4 cyl 4 valve water cooled turbo 230
6 cyl 986-based (in any chassis) 135
6 cyl water cooled turbo (any chassis) 240
8 cyl 2 valve 90
8 cyl 2 valve turbo 145
8 cyl 4 valve 100
8 cyl 4 valve turbo 165
Classification is as follows:
Performance Index Class
425 and below GT-1 R/S
426 to 550 GT-2 R/S
551 to 675 GT-3 R/S
676 to 825 GT-4 R/S
826 to 975 GT-5 R/S
976 and above GT-6 R/S
• It is permissible to add ballast to change one class only. Ballast is defined as removable weight bolted into the car
solely to achieve a target weight. Ballast may be placed anywhere in the car so long as it is appropriately and
adequately secured.
• Classes are further subdivided by tire type for cars on race tires and cars on DOT approved street tires, designated
“R” and “S” respectively.
• GT class, engine displacement, engine type and minimum weight must be written in the car’s log book
It looks like they dont want any non stock, prepared 996 or later chassis running in GT1-6 and I dont know why that is. It seems they (PCA) want them to run in a class called GTB, so that is what mike is talking about. since there is no GTB in PCA, they lump all them in to the GTA class.
986 motors only went to 3.2 liter and then in '07 they had the 3.4 version, but it was in the next gen which was called the 987. So, I guess if you put a 986 engine (3.2 liter) in your 996, you can run in GT3-4 or something.
very unclear! (but its clearer now)
Have fun!
Mark
PS, your choice is GTA with prc, or run GTS-x class, or run with SCCA ITE
yes, you have got it! my engine IS developed from the original boxster engine. it is a derivative of the original boxster design. it has been developed into the m96, m97 and cayman motors (which coincidently, is virtualy identical in design as my 3.4L). as mooty and i have already stated, my m96 motor is a variant of the boxster S 3.2L engine. there are slight changes but the engines are virtually the same. ah but one thing, "all wet sump, water-cooled flat sixes," ARE boxster based. name one modern porsche that fits this criteria that is not boxster based
i have sent an email to donna amico and asked her to clear things up. i hope to get a definitive answer soon and put this to rest.
i have sent an email to donna amico and asked her to clear things up. i hope to get a definitive answer soon and put this to rest.
08-04-2009, 03:26 AM
#67
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mark, i have already gone through the rule book. my car is beyond GTB but the engine is boxster based so does it belong in GTA... nope. it is not in GTA as it is not a factory race car. the GT rules don't state that my car is NOT allowed in GT 1-4. all cars modified beyond stock/modified/prepped classes are lumped into GT (again, barring factory race cars) so why not my car? i just can't find any clear cut reason why they would not let my car in GT. it is beyond GTB spec so why not GT? they allow the engine but not the chassis? makes no sense.
at any rate, i have asked donna to clarify. if my car is allowed in GT then great. if not then i asked her to cite it from the 2009 rule book and i can go on my merry way. i just need to know before i send in my payment for the upcoming PCA race at TH.
i understand GT3 based (the car not the class) cars should be in GTA but mine? maybe PCA/PRC just don't have a clear understanding of my car's capabilities. shoot, you and mike didn't even now that the new crop of 911s (except for GT2/3 and turbo 911s) all have engines derived from the boxster. my car is just a boxster with the engine in the rear.
maybe i should just find a boxster chassis and swap my bits into it. if i can find a cheap roller then i just might.
maybe i should just get this thread back on track
WHERE WOULD MY 3.4L 996 FIT IN SCCA CLUB RACING!!!!
at any rate, i have asked donna to clarify. if my car is allowed in GT then great. if not then i asked her to cite it from the 2009 rule book and i can go on my merry way. i just need to know before i send in my payment for the upcoming PCA race at TH.
i understand GT3 based (the car not the class) cars should be in GTA but mine? maybe PCA/PRC just don't have a clear understanding of my car's capabilities. shoot, you and mike didn't even now that the new crop of 911s (except for GT2/3 and turbo 911s) all have engines derived from the boxster. my car is just a boxster with the engine in the rear.
maybe i should just find a boxster chassis and swap my bits into it. if i can find a cheap roller then i just might.
maybe i should just get this thread back on track
WHERE WOULD MY 3.4L 996 FIT IN SCCA CLUB RACING!!!!
Carlos, I just went to the rule book. I remember starting at the POC book for hours calculatiing where my car would fit, while PCA rules took 1 min to understand. So, to Mike's defence, the rules do kind of point out that they dont want any 996s running in GT classes. SO, read this from the PCA rule book:
08-04-2009, 04:16 AM
#68
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08-04-2009, 04:17 AM
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08-04-2009, 08:49 AM
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Mark you're missinterperpeting PCA's intention and it's easy to do so.
They really need to reword their Boxster motor description to clear up this common confusion. I asked them to do that a year ago but received no response.
So Carlos's car falls into this category:
"6 cyl 986-based (in any chassis)".
It is a 986 based motor as previously discussed though we described it as a Boxster motor. 986 is of course the Boxster designation.
It also specifically states the GTA class is for "factory race cars" which this car is not. He could however run in GTB if he made a few chages to meet their criteria. He would need top comply with their stated specifications including a stock ECU and would have to run at 2750 lbs.
They really need to reword their Boxster motor description to clear up this common confusion. I asked them to do that a year ago but received no response.
So Carlos's car falls into this category:
"6 cyl 986-based (in any chassis)".
It is a 986 based motor as previously discussed though we described it as a Boxster motor. 986 is of course the Boxster designation.
It also specifically states the GTA class is for "factory race cars" which this car is not. He could however run in GTB if he made a few chages to meet their criteria. He would need top comply with their stated specifications including a stock ECU and would have to run at 2750 lbs.
08-04-2009, 12:18 PM
#71
Rennlist Member
Exactly !! x100
Option to Run in GTB: Unflash the ECU back to stock, and swap the front bumper, the weight is 2750 with the driver. Are you 2735 with driver? If you are below that add some weight in a few good places.
Option to Run in GT3: Loose more weight, make more power, run appropriate tires. Spend lots of $$$ to be competitive
Something got lost in the translation. It should read 6 cyl water cooled boxer motor ie, flat 6, horizontally opposed, etc. Not "Boxster"
Option to Run in GTB: Unflash the ECU back to stock, and swap the front bumper, the weight is 2750 with the driver. Are you 2735 with driver? If you are below that add some weight in a few good places.
Option to Run in GT3: Loose more weight, make more power, run appropriate tires. Spend lots of $$$ to be competitive
Something got lost in the translation. It should read 6 cyl water cooled boxer motor ie, flat 6, horizontally opposed, etc. Not "Boxster"
Mark you're missinterperpeting PCA's intention and it's easy to do so.
They really need to reword their Boxster motor description to clear up this common confusion. I asked them to do that a year ago but received no response.
So Carlos's car falls into this category:
"6 cyl 986-based (in any chassis)".
It is a 986 based motor as previously discussed though we described it as a Boxster motor. 986 is of course the Boxster designation.
It also specifically states the GTA class is for "factory race cars" which this car is not. He could however run in GTB if he made a few chages to meet their criteria. He would need top comply with their stated specifications including a stock ECU and would have to run at 2750 lbs.
They really need to reword their Boxster motor description to clear up this common confusion. I asked them to do that a year ago but received no response.
So Carlos's car falls into this category:
"6 cyl 986-based (in any chassis)".
It is a 986 based motor as previously discussed though we described it as a Boxster motor. 986 is of course the Boxster designation.
It also specifically states the GTA class is for "factory race cars" which this car is not. He could however run in GTB if he made a few chages to meet their criteria. He would need top comply with their stated specifications including a stock ECU and would have to run at 2750 lbs.
08-04-2009, 12:31 PM
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i'd do that if there was a field. there are NO GTB cars found around here. i'd have to go back to the stock gt3 style bumer (which i have thrown away ages ago), change my monoball thrust arm mounts back to rubber. "no engine modifications" so does that mean i have to go back to original heavy flywheel? flash back to oem..would be easy if there was a switcher available for my car so that's money out the window. too complicated and expensive.
i'd prefer not to go heavier but if there was a field then i would
if donna says it can't be in GT then i will have to run it in GTB (all by myself) as is. no one will protest my mods and weight, LOL. i will eventually turn it into a 3.4L boxster so i have more racing options.
i'd prefer not to go heavier but if there was a field then i would
if donna says it can't be in GT then i will have to run it in GTB (all by myself) as is. no one will protest my mods and weight, LOL. i will eventually turn it into a 3.4L boxster so i have more racing options.
Exactly !! x100
Unflash the ECU back to stock, the weight is 2750 with the driver. If you are below that add some weight in a few good places.
Something got lost in the translation. It should read 6 cyl water cooled boxer motor ie, flat 6, horizontally opposed, etc. Not "Boxster"
Unflash the ECU back to stock, the weight is 2750 with the driver. If you are below that add some weight in a few good places.
Something got lost in the translation. It should read 6 cyl water cooled boxer motor ie, flat 6, horizontally opposed, etc. Not "Boxster"
08-04-2009, 12:34 PM
#73
Three Wheelin'
Look. The PCA document says 986-based engines. To me, a 986 is a car and not an engine. It wouldn't surprise me in modern times if the original Boxster engine was designed as a 911 engine for the 996 onward cars, but put into the Boxster production first.... but who cares?
The 2009 PCA GTA language include the following, which implies non-factory race cars:
"and other 996/997-based cars not meeting the requirements
of the Stock, Prepared or GTC Classes."
But then when you look at GTA1 and GTA2 language that doesn't seem to be consistent.
When you look at the explanatory language PCA released when they decided on 2009 rules, they said:
"Allow GT-type cars with Boxster-based water-cooled motors in 993 or earlier chassis into GT, rather than GTP, and class in accordance with the GT formula for theoretical horsepower and weight."
It does not say 996 chassis. So that confused me. It's great that Carlos is being proactive in trying to determine his PCA class, and if the PCA language is a little confusing, it would be great if someone proposed a clarification for 2010.
In they end, the way PRC works is self-disclosure of class. Carlos can say he is in GT2, GT3, GT4 or GTA or whatever he wants. We don't have any written rules governing what happens if someone accidentally or intentionally declares an incorrect class for their car. The only time this has ever come up is with cars that have declared GT2 or GTC and have really been in GTA. And typically this came up as the PCA GTA and GTC classes were brand new so people needed to get acquainted with them. And when it came up, folks were just asked/reminded to try to class their cars correctly.
I believe that GTA, GT2, GT3, and GT4 cars and drivers that I know of that have run with PRC since we started have all been capable of 1:47 - 1:52 at Thunderhill with the Cyclone with our existing rules or if they were classed with the current PCA structure. There is no scheme or structure that creates perfect parity or fairness. Of course I have also seen cars in these classes struggle to break 2:00.
I think its theoretically possible that Carlos might be more competitive against some of our more recent GTA cars/drivers than GT3 cars/drivers.... but that's a different discussion.
In the end, of course its up to him where he races. If we don't have what he is looking for, that's cool... there are other folks to race with that have great programs.
The 2009 PCA GTA language include the following, which implies non-factory race cars:
"and other 996/997-based cars not meeting the requirements
of the Stock, Prepared or GTC Classes."
But then when you look at GTA1 and GTA2 language that doesn't seem to be consistent.
When you look at the explanatory language PCA released when they decided on 2009 rules, they said:
"Allow GT-type cars with Boxster-based water-cooled motors in 993 or earlier chassis into GT, rather than GTP, and class in accordance with the GT formula for theoretical horsepower and weight."
It does not say 996 chassis. So that confused me. It's great that Carlos is being proactive in trying to determine his PCA class, and if the PCA language is a little confusing, it would be great if someone proposed a clarification for 2010.
In they end, the way PRC works is self-disclosure of class. Carlos can say he is in GT2, GT3, GT4 or GTA or whatever he wants. We don't have any written rules governing what happens if someone accidentally or intentionally declares an incorrect class for their car. The only time this has ever come up is with cars that have declared GT2 or GTC and have really been in GTA. And typically this came up as the PCA GTA and GTC classes were brand new so people needed to get acquainted with them. And when it came up, folks were just asked/reminded to try to class their cars correctly.
I believe that GTA, GT2, GT3, and GT4 cars and drivers that I know of that have run with PRC since we started have all been capable of 1:47 - 1:52 at Thunderhill with the Cyclone with our existing rules or if they were classed with the current PCA structure. There is no scheme or structure that creates perfect parity or fairness. Of course I have also seen cars in these classes struggle to break 2:00.
I think its theoretically possible that Carlos might be more competitive against some of our more recent GTA cars/drivers than GT3 cars/drivers.... but that's a different discussion.
In the end, of course its up to him where he races. If we don't have what he is looking for, that's cool... there are other folks to race with that have great programs.
08-04-2009, 12:53 PM
#74
Rennlist Member
Right, you can go into GTB to start and race with cars in other clasess for overall position vs class position. The way it works is if you are slow or have no one in your class then there is no one to protest you. ie your bumper.
GTB = Beyond stock and prepared. As for the LWFW, look at the rules closely.. That is already allowed in the prepared classes. Even the ECU change is allowed in prepared but bumps you up a class letter.
Actually, Other than weight. I don't see why you couldn't be in Prepared?
GTB = Beyond stock and prepared. As for the LWFW, look at the rules closely.. That is already allowed in the prepared classes. Even the ECU change is allowed in prepared but bumps you up a class letter.
Actually, Other than weight. I don't see why you couldn't be in Prepared?
i'd do that if there was a field. there are NO GTB cars found around here. i'd have to go back to the stock gt3 style bumer (which i have thrown away ages ago), change my monoball thrust arm mounts back to rubber. "no engine modifications" so does that mean i have to go back to original heavy flywheel? flash back to oem..would be easy if there was a switcher available for my car so that's money out the window. too complicated and expensive.
i'd prefer not to go heavier but if there was a field then i would
if donna says it can't be in GT then i will have to run it in GTB (all by myself) as is. no one will protest my mods and weight, LOL. i will eventually turn it into a 3.4L boxster so i have more racing options.
i'd prefer not to go heavier but if there was a field then i would
if donna says it can't be in GT then i will have to run it in GTB (all by myself) as is. no one will protest my mods and weight, LOL. i will eventually turn it into a 3.4L boxster so i have more racing options.
08-04-2009, 01:09 PM
#75
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i will test those waters when i get to it.
i am beyond GTB for weight and want to go even lighter. i have other mods that i haven't listed that may not be allowed. my suspension mods are not allowed as it says "Suspension components must remain stock Suspension components must remain stock ".
right, ecu must be stock but mods to it are allowed.
i also was going to max out my wheels and tires to 11x13 and stick some RSR flares on it.
overall win is not possible. even a wint in PCA-gt3 might not be possible but i don;t want to be racing by myself. it is race etiquette that one does not interfere with some other race class. that is what i would be doing if i was in GTB and screwing up someone's race who is in GT3/4, spec911 etc. all of these cars would be around me but do i race them? i suppose i can say screw it and do my own thing.
i am just going to play it by ear. PRC has loose rules and it appears i can self class. it's PCA-club racing that could be a sticky point. i just need to know before i do further lightening and wheel mods.
i am beyond GTB for weight and want to go even lighter. i have other mods that i haven't listed that may not be allowed. my suspension mods are not allowed as it says "Suspension components must remain stock Suspension components must remain stock ".
right, ecu must be stock but mods to it are allowed.
i also was going to max out my wheels and tires to 11x13 and stick some RSR flares on it.
overall win is not possible. even a wint in PCA-gt3 might not be possible but i don;t want to be racing by myself. it is race etiquette that one does not interfere with some other race class. that is what i would be doing if i was in GTB and screwing up someone's race who is in GT3/4, spec911 etc. all of these cars would be around me but do i race them? i suppose i can say screw it and do my own thing.
i am just going to play it by ear. PRC has loose rules and it appears i can self class. it's PCA-club racing that could be a sticky point. i just need to know before i do further lightening and wheel mods.
Right, you can go into GTB to start and race with cars in other clasess for overall position vs class position. The way it works is if you are slow or have no one in your class then there is no one to protest you. ie your bumper.
GTB = Beyond stock and prepared. As for the LWFW, look at the rules closely.. That is already allowed in the prepared classes. Even the ECU change is allowed in prepared but bumps you up a class letter.
Actually, Other than weight. I don't see why you couldn't be in Prepared?
GTB = Beyond stock and prepared. As for the LWFW, look at the rules closely.. That is already allowed in the prepared classes. Even the ECU change is allowed in prepared but bumps you up a class letter.
Actually, Other than weight. I don't see why you couldn't be in Prepared?