Destroyed Michelin Cups in 1 DE... are they right for dual purpose car?
#16
Shannon:
Could it be that at least a small portion of you spin problem has to do with suspension alignment?
You may think about calling all of these guys in and around Cincinnati for advice:
________________________
http://www.performance-alignment.com/ (in Blue Ash)
Bill Brocksick did my alignment and corner balance one year ago in March. Since then I have driven twice to Mid Ohio and twice to Putnam plus 1000's of street miles on the NT 01's. Bill has been doing suspension mods and alignments on porsches for 30 + years.
________________________
Farler Performance in Franklin Ohio, near Middletown
________________________
http://www.wrighttuning.com/ (Batavia)
Wright team finished third at 24 hours of Daytona earlier this spring.
________________________
Generally speaking, with such few miles on new tires, your rear tires should not show much more tread ware than the front. Perhaps 2/32" at most. And it has nothing to do with driving to the track on R compound tires.
Could it be that at least a small portion of you spin problem has to do with suspension alignment?
You may think about calling all of these guys in and around Cincinnati for advice:
________________________
http://www.performance-alignment.com/ (in Blue Ash)
Bill Brocksick did my alignment and corner balance one year ago in March. Since then I have driven twice to Mid Ohio and twice to Putnam plus 1000's of street miles on the NT 01's. Bill has been doing suspension mods and alignments on porsches for 30 + years.
________________________
Farler Performance in Franklin Ohio, near Middletown
________________________
http://www.wrighttuning.com/ (Batavia)
Wright team finished third at 24 hours of Daytona earlier this spring.
________________________
Generally speaking, with such few miles on new tires, your rear tires should not show much more tread ware than the front. Perhaps 2/32" at most. And it has nothing to do with driving to the track on R compound tires.
#17
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
I did have the car aligned just before going to the track. I've got the computer print out and I trust the shop. So I'm sure that I'm even side-to-side. But I don't have nearly as much neg. camber as y'all are indicating I should.
I'm going back next week to get the situation re-evaluated and decide on new tires. The MPSCs are going out of stock so I may be stuck getting something else.
#18
Ironman 140.6
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
+1
I have used about 6 sets of MPSC's on my 986 and I have never seen wear like that on my tires. FWIW, I drive my car to and from the track on the MPSC's and I utilize fairly mild (for the track) alignment settings so I don't eat my street tires.
I generally get about 6-8 track days out of a set on MPSC's
I have used about 6 sets of MPSC's on my 986 and I have never seen wear like that on my tires. FWIW, I drive my car to and from the track on the MPSC's and I utilize fairly mild (for the track) alignment settings so I don't eat my street tires.
I generally get about 6-8 track days out of a set on MPSC's
Last edited by Ray S; 07-17-2009 at 12:57 PM.
#19
Drifting
Any chance you have pyrometer data from those tires?
Depending on how hard you drive you may find that you get more grip out of something else with a car that weighs what yours does (not as heavy as a GT3 for instance). I found the MPSC worked great on heavier cars where it was easy to get them up to temp. Tom is right, you have to get them really hot.
Get Nittos or R888's or something that require less camber and you can drive to the track on them. Normally I would say RA-1. They were the perfect tire for drive-to-track type cars. Too bad they are gone. ;-(.
Depending on how hard you drive you may find that you get more grip out of something else with a car that weighs what yours does (not as heavy as a GT3 for instance). I found the MPSC worked great on heavier cars where it was easy to get them up to temp. Tom is right, you have to get them really hot.
Get Nittos or R888's or something that require less camber and you can drive to the track on them. Normally I would say RA-1. They were the perfect tire for drive-to-track type cars. Too bad they are gone. ;-(.
#20
King of Cool
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
As already said, crank more camber and you should be fine, pyrometer is a good way to find out what the tires are going through when at track.
Oh, and less spinning always helps too!
#21
Rennlist
Basic Site Sponsor
Basic Site Sponsor
I just have a lot of experience and have a good understanding of the subject. I also don't make "expert commentary" on things that I do not have first hand knowledge of. I am under-appreciated at Riesentoter.
__________________
Larry Herman
2016 Ford Transit Connect Titanium LWB
2018 Tesla Model 3 - Electricity can be fun!
Retired Club Racer & National PCA Instructor
Past Flames:
1994 RS America Club Racer
2004 GT3 Track Car
1984 911 Carrera Club Racer
1974 914/4 2.0 Track Car
CLICK HERE to see some of my ancient racing videos.
Larry Herman
2016 Ford Transit Connect Titanium LWB
2018 Tesla Model 3 - Electricity can be fun!
Retired Club Racer & National PCA Instructor
Past Flames:
1994 RS America Club Racer
2004 GT3 Track Car
1984 911 Carrera Club Racer
1974 914/4 2.0 Track Car
CLICK HERE to see some of my ancient racing videos.
#22
Why do you say that? The inside edges of your tires are positively virginal.
Unless you put a lot of street miles on your car and are tearing up your streets, the few hundred driving to the track on your track tires does not mean much. I'd set the front for -2.5 and the back for -3 degrees.
Unless you put a lot of street miles on your car and are tearing up your streets, the few hundred driving to the track on your track tires does not mean much. I'd set the front for -2.5 and the back for -3 degrees.
I actually had a similar problem many moons ago [cording the outside of my track tires due to lack of negative camber]. My first solution to saving my "expensive" track tires was to set up my car at -2.0 F and -2.5 R. Then I got a cheap set of street rims and ran Sumitomo tires until track days. Ultimately, I stored my track wheels at the track and just drove my cheapo streets to-from. Actually, I still do that!
And you can definitely get a backup set of rims for less than $700.
-td
#24
Rennlist Member
Besides a possible alignment issue, I think any tire would be rendered useless after a flat spot like that, whether you got to the cords or not. The vibration alone would make the car undrivable.
Like others have said. Don't do that!
Like others have said. Don't do that!
#26
Depending on the mods made, you *could* have trouble getting the camber you need. Short of camber plates or a good come-along to the shock towers, my SC couldn't get enough negative camber with otherwise stock like components. I too would wear out the outside edges of the fronts, luckily they wore at about the same rate as the sliding rears would
Also, it sounds like the small amounts of street driving you do would impact the tires very little. Excessive TOE setting (ideally a bit of toe-out in front) will likely kill your tires faster than the negative camber amounts being discussed here).
Also, it sounds like the small amounts of street driving you do would impact the tires very little. Excessive TOE setting (ideally a bit of toe-out in front) will likely kill your tires faster than the negative camber amounts being discussed here).
#27
Three Wheelin'
No. I ran 3-3.5 on my 964 that saw plenty of street time. You are basically trading street wear for track wear, but you would be surprised that your wear is actually not that bad with a more aggressive setup. Also try Nitto NT01's. They are a greap r comp that wears better than most others.
#28
Race Car
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: With A Manual Transmission
Posts: 4,728
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
NT-01's are a great suggestion, they last for a long time.
But look how much of the contact patch you are NOT USING!!!! This can be a contributing factor to your spins because during cornering, instead of using (for example) 10 inch wide wheel you might as well be using a 6.5 inch wide wheel.
If you aren't using that part of the tire, it will wear prematurely no matter what kind of tire it is. Some other tires may last longer, but you are only masking the problem, not fixing it. Street tires will take a lot more abuse though, so if you can't get more camber, I would say your car is street tire only.
If it is your home track, move to streets for now.
But look how much of the contact patch you are NOT USING!!!! This can be a contributing factor to your spins because during cornering, instead of using (for example) 10 inch wide wheel you might as well be using a 6.5 inch wide wheel.
If you aren't using that part of the tire, it will wear prematurely no matter what kind of tire it is. Some other tires may last longer, but you are only masking the problem, not fixing it. Street tires will take a lot more abuse though, so if you can't get more camber, I would say your car is street tire only.
If it is your home track, move to streets for now.
#29
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
The tires did not fail because of alignment. The "defect" is focal, not concentric. I'm sorry I didn't make this more clear in the original post.
I appreciate the input about MPSCs and alignment. I was not aware of the importance camber might play with this particular tire (or R cmpds). It will factor into my decision about buying them again.
#30
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
NT-01's are a great suggestion, they last for a long time.
But look how much of the contact patch you are NOT USING!!!! This can be a contributing factor to your spins because during cornering, instead of using (for example) 10 inch wide wheel you might as well be using a 6.5 inch wide wheel.
If you aren't using that part of the tire, it will wear prematurely no matter what kind of tire it is. Some other tires may last longer, but you are only masking the problem, not fixing it. Street tires will take a lot more abuse though, so if you can't get more camber, I would say your car is street tire only.
If it is your home track, move to streets for now.
But look how much of the contact patch you are NOT USING!!!! This can be a contributing factor to your spins because during cornering, instead of using (for example) 10 inch wide wheel you might as well be using a 6.5 inch wide wheel.
If you aren't using that part of the tire, it will wear prematurely no matter what kind of tire it is. Some other tires may last longer, but you are only masking the problem, not fixing it. Street tires will take a lot more abuse though, so if you can't get more camber, I would say your car is street tire only.
If it is your home track, move to streets for now.
The spins were not a setup problem, they were pure and simple driver errors. The car handled beautifully before the tire damage. But wow are you right about it being undriveable after. The vibration made it unsettle to the point I couldn't judge the "feel" of the car anymore.
Not my home track. This track has abrasive pavement. My home is Midohio and it's smoother. I have 3 DE left this year: MidOhio and two at Bluegrass (I hope).