viperbob

Peter you are correct. While clearly Tom did force an issue, the Ferrari was situationally unaware that Tom was even there. He never saw the bright yellow car which was all the way to the inside and closing since before 9. Tom's closing was not much different than a faster Radical or a Stohr going into 10. So if he did not see Tom, clearly he would not have seen a lower faster car. I am not saying Tom could have made a safer choice, but I hope the Ferrari driver (a good guy BTW) learned that there are faster cars out there an you have to always be aware and anticipate. If he had seen Tom at all closing, while he did have the choice of line, etc. I would have yielded the turn to a faster car and stayed wide away from the apex if I saw a car closing the way Tom had been. This would have given me the inside still on the other car was as fast as I thought going around 11 and would have still kept the black Ferrari behind me. Just my perception of both videos.

Problem is these things happen so fast you do not have time to think, just react. So hopefully both drivers learned something and will be better next time.

Brian P

I think it's hard to place any blame on the Ferrari driver. The only point where Tom is even with the Ferrrari is when they hit. At turn-in, there is zero overlap between Tom and the Ferrari. Even when they do hit, it's Tom front wheel against the Ferrari guy's back wheel. If the Ferrari guy was another 0.05 seconds ahead, there would have been no contact.

I think the most we could say about the Ferrari guy is he could have seen Tom coming, and judged that there is no way Tom could even make the turn. He wouldn't be conceding the inside, but instead be going off-track as an avoidance measure.

sbelles

oops, I saw "I was the car behind..." and I thought it was the poster. Didn't look at the ID. Good answer though Lindsey.

JackOlsen

Did the sanctioning group or track stewards make a decision on fault? A 13/13 or anything like that? I don't know the particular rules you're racing under, but even though he wasn't driving a particularly defensive line (you describe it as a DE line), I think it's hard to make the argument that you owned the corner by the point that either of you turned in.

But like everyone else says, we live and learn. None of us does everything correctly right from the moment we start racing -- if we did, would there really be any point to it? You did more than was required (or probably expected) by offering him some help with his repairs.

tkerrmd

Jack good question not sure if there is such a strict 13/13 like in PCA. I went to the tower filled out my report and left. havent heard anything since. PBOC people are pretty cool about things unless there is really a problem. I hope I will still be able to race with them it was my chosen race series because of the people and how well it is run.

ViperBob thanks for all the constructive critiscism it really helped me and hopefully I wont need so much next time, thanks for being there for me.

JackOlsen

It's true; it's almost never 100% one driver's fault. If the Ferrari driver was more experienced, he would have defended the corner more actively by entering further to the right -- more predictable race behavior.

But a lot of groups lay out pretty clear rules for this sort of thing -- meaning where you have to be relative to the other car if you want to pass in that corner (like bumper to the driver's door, or he owns the corner and it's your responsibility to brake and back out to avoid contact).

I would think that if no one talked to you about probation by the end of the weekend, you're probably not facing probation. (But again, different groups handle all this stuff differently.)

DrJupeman

I basically disagree with all of this. Even a Radical flying up the side in the braking zone has to have the situational awareness to expect the Ferrari to take the normal fast line through the turn in that situation. You can't come out of nowhere and just dive bomb up the inside. It is really the passing car's responsibility to complete the pass.

I think there is very little to critique the Ferrari driver for other than him driving a Ferrari.

Veloce Raptor

I concur, except for your last 6 words.







Professional Racing and Driving Coach

pedsurg

Tom: Great thread !!
Love these who owns or doesn' t own the turn discussions (and videos)

Jack

earlyapex

I applaud you for putting this issue up for discussion and for taking responsibility for your actions.

garrett376

Doesn't the PBOC have definite rules describing how to make proper passes? That's why I like racing with the POC - their rules are simple and in the spirit of amateur, "you win nothing" racing: you must leave racing room. There is no relative position or width to leave, there is no "owning a corner", you must always leave room to co-exist. Second and equally important, it's the overtaking car's responsibility to make a safe pass - especially a faster car. I'd be interested in what the PBOC's policy is.
Thanks for sharing!

Brian P

I agree with the policy of leaving racing room, but I think there at least needs to be some overlap before you leave racing room. Otherwise, you are basically saying that if anybody is ever behind you but not directly behind you, you shouldn't be driving down to the apex.

I think the only thing the Ferrari guy could have done differently would have been to drive straight off the track so that he could avoid being hit. I don't think any amount of "racing room" would have helped here.

garrett376

Brian I agree with what you say about the room - this wasn't a case of leaving room, it was a case of the overtaking driver needing to orchestrate a safe pass.

tkerrmd

he could have left all the room in the world I would have still hit him, I over cooked it on the inside in the brake zone with cold pads. I was too eager and too aggressive and I should not have hit the Ferrari that is pretty much it.
I posted the vid to demonstrate how stupid I was and hope that it wont happen again. I felt bad for the Ferrari driver (Tim a pilot) who was very nice and gracious and sure as hell didnt know what hit him.
the post demonstrates my errors for all to see and hopefully not repeat it. patience patience patience is the only real advise I am able to give. the experienced racers here who took the time to reply and give insite we all appreciate. Really no one outright called me a stupid *** or douch bag and I applaude the forum for not making me burn in hell, I wouldnt have been suprised.

I paid for a new wheel for him we shook hands and as far as I know I will see him at the next race. where he will avoid me on the track like the plaque.

the only thing I have going for me is that racing is racing and we all have our 100k+ cars on the line knowing no matter what happens or who's fault it is it is ultimately our responsibility for our own cars and as far as I know, NO ONE EXPECTS someone else to pay for damage to anothers car no matter what the cause of the crash. that is the bottom line when you are on the track and are racing, it aint no DE. so racer beware.

thanks again for all the insight

tom

pedsurg

Where is the burn in hell icon ?? : )

Jack