BostonDMD

after the apex but before track out......

on my last week's video of the Glen, (don't worry I am not posting it and bore you to death),
I noticed more and more mid-corner minute corrections, or quick jerks of the wheel to keep the oversteer under control as more throttle was quickly added at or just past the apex......

I guess it is a sign of being close to the limit of the tires' grip.....

What are your thoughts on that?

Good or bad?

Faster or slower?

It probably has to do with the traction circle......anyway, thanks.....

FredC

it depends.

Did you enter the corner optimally at the maximum speed possible or did you botch the entry and got stuck dealing with the problem at track out? If the former, corrections can be expected depending on the amount of throttle you apply. If the latter, you will have to correct or bend some metal/crack some fiberglass.

Veloce Raptor

To add to what Fred said, if you are correcting slight oversteer, this is generally good. If you are correcting understeer repeatedly on the same corner lap after lap, this is not good, and you as the driver need to change lines or inputs to adapt.







Professional Racing and Driving Coach

BC

Are you always looking for oversteer? Or is some understeer depending on the car's proper setup, at the limit, acceptable?

I hear of the F1 cars changing from one to the other through a corner or in different types of corners.

I always felt a more neutral car mid corner felt better. I suppose you are saying that's not the fastest?

mater

I would soften the rear springs, if you have correct tire pressures and your sure the car is fully loaded mid corner.

Veloce Raptor

I will paraphrase none other than Randy Pobst: slight understeer on entry & slight oversteer on exit = ideal. Some people will disagree, but I will go with Randy on this......







Professional Racing and Driving Coach

FredC

I agree with this too, especially with tail happy nineeeeeelevens. But to be clear, even with a generally neutral rwd car, i believe that you may be leaving money on the table [edit in: in certain corners] if you don't at least flirt with oversteer at he exit of a well set-up turn.... just my dumb *** 2 cents.

DrJupeman

I'm disturbed to hear that you were experiencing oversteer as throttle was applied and you're correcting this with your steering wheel. Generally speaking, I would expect your reaction in a 911 to be to plant the gas. I suspect you are not on the throttle hard enough in these situations. Otherwise, if you're correcting at or past the apex with the steering wheel, you're correcting too late. Particularly in a 911, you have to have the turn right before the apex so you can be firmly on the gas through track out.

If you are solidly on the gas, again because this is a 911 and assuming your setup is reasonably good (and given the history of the car, I know it should be), then I think you may be mis-interpreting oversteer for something else: like slop in the sidewalls or some other aspect of your car hunkering into a "set". That or you're early on your turns, reacting somewhere just before or near the apex (e.g., slowing, lifting), the tail is reacting to this correction and you find yourself in a mid-turn fight for survival. This is not the fast way around...

BC

That makes sense. That seems like it would be the most reassuring, creating an environment for more speed.

BC

And the under - in, and the over - out, seems to be exactly what you see in both full bodied race cars and Formula cars.

I guess that would be very different if you for some reason chose to race a front wheel drive car. Not that I would condone such ridiculousness.

Veloce Raptor

I know it's the case in my M3....and your lap times at the Glen tell me you are no dumbass!







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Veloce Raptor

In his words, it makes the car reassuring & predictable. And this allows more brain cycles for racecraft.







Professional Racing and Driving Coach

onefastviking

+1

and add that a tire is at maximum grip at a very slight amount of slip angle.

bobt993

Paolo,

If you recall a year ago at the Glen I pointed this out to you while we working on your promotion to black. If I remember correctly in T1, you were a little behind in letting the wheel out after the apex. The Dr. also added lack of full throttle at exit which I think is a good point . I think this combination prematurely puts you over the limit in rear grip. My comment then was your hurrying up to go slower. (The car needs a slight bit more rotation to go harder.) Try looking further down the track at exit/track out and attack the throttle harder. I bet you will pick up almost a second at the Glen by adjusting your T1 to T2 transition.

SundayDriver

From your description, I would not call that mid-corner, rather that is the exit phase since it does not start until past apex/on power. That said, without video, my guess is that you are not unwinding the steering enough (as someone else also said). At this stage of your development, I would think your focus should be on exit speed, and that is suffering if you are correcting in the exit phase. Once you get that right, then you can start to pick up the entry and mid-corner speed. Then you will find the need to correct throughout the entire corner if you are really at the limit.

In addition to what others have said about entry understeer and exit oversteer most people prefer a bias towards oversteer in slow corners (to aid rotation) and understeer in fast corners (it is not all that fun to have to fight the tail in a 130 mph corner).