How PCA racing needs to reorganize
05-08-2009, 03:24 PM
#31
Race Director
This is a problem for the older cars. A pre 1975 911 cannot get more power than stock, they had factory tuned headers and also very efficient intakes/air filters. A later model porsche can put on tuned headers and ALSO remove cats which certainly raises power, as seen on those 911sc's.
Really if we were talking about mix marque racing it would be near impossible to give a certain car a special allowance. However PCA deals with relativly few cars and most are very well known interms of what is realy possible from the car. As such it is not really that hard to determine what is right weight for every car in PCA stock such that it has be best chance of competing in that class. If a car needs to run a bit lighter than the rest due to old t-bar suspension and no provision for fat tires then so be it. PCA has the history to really understand this and ensure there really is a place for all Porsche's to race in semi compeitive enviroment.
The problem now is race weights are linked to curb weight and not the right weight for the class. As such you can't argue that the 95 993 is too heavy to be competitve in class. The response is tough. However I am sure if you just let 50-60lbs out of the car it will be easy to make it competitive in class. We all know the chassis is sound so let the weight adjust. Heck same for 2.5L boxsters vs 2.7 or 3.4 996 vs 3.6. This even make X51 stuff easier since you can just say X51 = 60lbs or something rather than the ony option being a different class. The freedom to tweak the racing weight of a car is essential in creating good competition betweens cars that are not idendicatal. IMHO this is the biggest change that needs to happen to PCA stock class racing. (Oh that an removing carpets to allow for easy weight reductions where needed.)
05-08-2009, 04:18 PM
#32
Drifting
05-08-2009, 04:26 PM
#33
Drifting
First off, I love PCA club racing and enjoy the camraderie of all of the members. If the economy hadn't hit me so hard, I'd still be racing. So it is with a positive focus that I would like to experess what I feel PCA should do with their classes.
Remember that Club Racing was created as a way for DE guys to drive their fairly stock cars to the track, race them wheel to wheel, and drive them home. The popularity of the program has grown so much that in practice we have moved completely away from that idea. With the exception of the GT3, there has been no other car in recent history that could show up to the track relatively unmodified and win. And now with all of the safety requirements, it is not possible to have a street legal car to race anymore. So lets move past the idea of racing stock cars and make reasonable groupings that make sense, competition-wise and financially.
I feel that the revamping of the race classes has been great, and with the exception of eliminating the distinction between street and race tires (or offering an equivalency formula) the 6 groups are quite good. The factory race car groups (GTC 1-4) are what they are and the Spec groups are fine.
The GTP 1-6 groups are silly. How many classes do we need for Factory race cars that do not fit into the other race catagories? Revise it so that it is down to 2. How many of those cars show up anyway?
So this brings us to the crux of the matter, the stock and prepared classes. Since I have whittled away 10 classes, we should now have enough room to have separate stock and prepared groupings. Stock can really be stock now, with rules designed to allow for cheap but effective modifications like camber plates (cheap & saves tires) and non-adjustable shocks. Expensive ones like remote reservoir shocks should not. Brakes should be stock, but any wheel that fits under a stock contour fender (rolled lips are ok) should be allowed as long as it is a single piece wheel. Interiors can be removed, but dashboards and passengers seats retained for the stock look and DE purposes. The current motor rules are good, but since many chip their motors for DEs, and it is allowed everywhere else, let it be legal. Motors & transes should be stock.
Prepared should bring the cars up to a new level, but with significantly less cost than a modified version of the car. Motor internals, cams, pistons, intake & injection etc should be stock except for specific reliabilty changes such as better retainers, stiffer valve springs and the M96 longeveity mods that are beginning to surface. Transes, brakes, and suspension parts should be free along with a 150 lb weigh reduction across the board. Bodywork can be free (but with a handicap formula for cars with flared fenders). This will allow those who run in NASA to more easily re-ballast their cars so they can come back and compete with us.
Hopefully, a better thought out 3 tier level to our program will allow for more cars to be competitive in their classes, and enable those DE specials and other racing series cars to come into PCA.
Of course this is just my opinion on the subject, your mileage may vary.
Remember that Club Racing was created as a way for DE guys to drive their fairly stock cars to the track, race them wheel to wheel, and drive them home. The popularity of the program has grown so much that in practice we have moved completely away from that idea. With the exception of the GT3, there has been no other car in recent history that could show up to the track relatively unmodified and win. And now with all of the safety requirements, it is not possible to have a street legal car to race anymore. So lets move past the idea of racing stock cars and make reasonable groupings that make sense, competition-wise and financially.
I feel that the revamping of the race classes has been great, and with the exception of eliminating the distinction between street and race tires (or offering an equivalency formula) the 6 groups are quite good. The factory race car groups (GTC 1-4) are what they are and the Spec groups are fine.
The GTP 1-6 groups are silly. How many classes do we need for Factory race cars that do not fit into the other race catagories? Revise it so that it is down to 2. How many of those cars show up anyway?
So this brings us to the crux of the matter, the stock and prepared classes. Since I have whittled away 10 classes, we should now have enough room to have separate stock and prepared groupings. Stock can really be stock now, with rules designed to allow for cheap but effective modifications like camber plates (cheap & saves tires) and non-adjustable shocks. Expensive ones like remote reservoir shocks should not. Brakes should be stock, but any wheel that fits under a stock contour fender (rolled lips are ok) should be allowed as long as it is a single piece wheel. Interiors can be removed, but dashboards and passengers seats retained for the stock look and DE purposes. The current motor rules are good, but since many chip their motors for DEs, and it is allowed everywhere else, let it be legal. Motors & transes should be stock.
Prepared should bring the cars up to a new level, but with significantly less cost than a modified version of the car. Motor internals, cams, pistons, intake & injection etc should be stock except for specific reliabilty changes such as better retainers, stiffer valve springs and the M96 longeveity mods that are beginning to surface. Transes, brakes, and suspension parts should be free along with a 150 lb weigh reduction across the board. Bodywork can be free (but with a handicap formula for cars with flared fenders). This will allow those who run in NASA to more easily re-ballast their cars so they can come back and compete with us.
Hopefully, a better thought out 3 tier level to our program will allow for more cars to be competitive in their classes, and enable those DE specials and other racing series cars to come into PCA.
Of course this is just my opinion on the subject, your mileage may vary.
05-08-2009, 04:42 PM
#34
This would be helped by bring a dyno to the Watkins Glen club race and getting some HP measurements on the top 3 of each class of each race (and qualifying). Then, with the HP data, some adjustments could be made to the minimum weights to level the playing field.
05-08-2009, 04:51 PM
#35
Drifting
It would be so simple. Of course it does not factor suspension mods that could make a car superior to another at same hp/weight. But in the end, i am of the opinion that car development (within a certain envelope) is part of the fun. I enjoy discussing how to make the car better with my shop (and even enjoy hearing back that i should just drive it faster the way it is...) Perhaps it's just me though...
05-08-2009, 05:04 PM
#36
Three Wheelin'
05-08-2009, 05:17 PM
#38
Rennlist Member
05-08-2009, 06:32 PM
#39
Drifting
05-08-2009, 07:23 PM
#40
Burning Brakes
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I agree with using P/W to figure class. I know my main compitetion are the RSAs and they get to be light. around 200 pounds lighter. Thats a lot. Those cars are rated at 247 horse power and my 95 is like 270 or 280. In reality all my buddies that have rebuilt their 964s make right at 255 to 260 at the rear wheels and still get to be 200 pounds lighter. My fully built motor makes the exact same power as them in the end. Maybe only slightly more, maybe 10 horse power. Is that worth a 200 to 250 pound penilty? By the way, my car with minimal stuff removed, nothing out of the usual and I had to add 150 pluss pounds of ballast to the interior. I still need more to make weight.....
Just some more food for thought.
Just some more food for thought.
05-09-2009, 02:54 AM
#42
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Sean....i proposed a dyno suggestion as a PCA Rule Change for all winners to be dyno tested (and of course weighed) where appropriate like stock classes, spec classes, etc
norm m
norm m
05-09-2009, 03:08 AM
#43
How did you word the rule change? Obviously cars have to make weight, but there is no rule that says that cars have to meet the HP specs. Due to headers and exhaust modifications, I suspect that very few of the stock class cars are at published HP numbers.
05-09-2009, 10:22 AM
#44
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Brian....i suggested PCA have RWHP guidelines (for appropriate classes) such as used by NASA.
Examples:
NASA 944 Cup series published maximum RWHP guidelines for all the different 924, 944, 994T, 968 variations. the allowed RWHP guidelines account for increased performance from CAT removal, headers, etc. Turbo powered cars in particular can easily have increased power from engine management rather than internal mods.
NASA GTS Series (stock and modified german cars including Porsches)) classses cars based on HP to Weight Ratio (GTS 1 - GTS 5) and i believe also requires RWHP Dyno documented disclosure prior to season.
Examples:
NASA 944 Cup series published maximum RWHP guidelines for all the different 924, 944, 994T, 968 variations. the allowed RWHP guidelines account for increased performance from CAT removal, headers, etc. Turbo powered cars in particular can easily have increased power from engine management rather than internal mods.
NASA GTS Series (stock and modified german cars including Porsches)) classses cars based on HP to Weight Ratio (GTS 1 - GTS 5) and i believe also requires RWHP Dyno documented disclosure prior to season.
Last edited by cooz; 05-09-2009 at 10:45 AM.
05-09-2009, 12:02 PM
#45
Rennlist Member
I agree with using P/W to figure class. I know my main compitetion are the RSAs and they get to be light. around 200 pounds lighter. Thats a lot. Those cars are rated at 247 horse power and my 95 is like 270 or 280. In reality all my buddies that have rebuilt their 964s make right at 255 to 260 at the rear wheels and still get to be 200 pounds lighter. My fully built motor makes the exact same power as them in the end. Maybe only slightly more, maybe 10 horse power. Is that worth a 200 to 250 pound penilty? By the way, my car with minimal stuff removed, nothing out of the usual and I had to add 150 pluss pounds of ballast to the interior. I still need more to make weight.....
The '84-'86 911 has a 100 pound disadvantage compared to the Euro SC with the same tranny which makes it an unpopular choice for E stock. With a 200 lb penalty, '87-'89 G50 Carreras are almost nonexistent in club racing... a shame.
Though I do not have dyno proof, I suspect the hp difference between 3.0 Euro SC and 3.2 Carrera motors is not significant... or at least not 100-200 pounds significant...
