Accusump Installation
#17
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Hope that helps...
#18
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One of the better write-ups about the potential issues with Accusumps:
...
Originally Posted by Chris White
Let see if I can cover the questions about the Accusump in one post…
First off it is important to understand a couple of things –
1) at stock ‘max’ oil level (by dipstick mark) the oil level is with in an inch of the crank (top of the lower sump).
2) The reason for the rod bearing failure has nothing to do with the pick up being uncovered – this is not possible unless you run well over two quarts low. I was at the Glen earlier this year and checked on a 944 stock class race car that was next to me in the garage – no oil showing on the dipstick after a track session. Rod bearing did not destruct.
3) The ‘real’ reason for the rod bearing issue is the 90 degree ‘bend’ in the crankshaft oil drilling. This causes a severe flow problem along with a starvation due to centrifugal forces issue.
4) Aerating of the oil due to contact with the crank will aggravate item number 3, and you can’t prevent this unless you go to a dry sump system. Under braking (at least track braking at 1G) half of the oil in the pan will flow to the front on the engine – where there is only about ½” of clearance between the crank and the pan. At this point you are making Oil Margaritas!
The Accusump is a passive device that injects additional oil when a drop in pressure is sensed – it typically comes precharged to dump oil when the pressure drops below 40 psi. So when ever you drop below 40 psi it will add oil….for more Oil Margaritas!
As some folks have mentioned they lowered this precharge to 5-6 psi – I will give them credit for thinking of this but it won’t help the rod bearing issue – to defeat the starvation issue you need to keep the oil pressure as high as possible and the aeration as little as possible – adding oil at 5 psi will not help (it doesn’t really hurt either – once your engine is at 5 psi while out on the track you are toast anyway…)
The electronic valve is not an intelligent device – it is simply a remote on/off valve, it will not help the issue – but it does make for a nice preoiler.
So, I will agree that if you reduce the precharge of the accusump you are not doing any harm….but no good either. In worst case it just means that you will dump an extra 3 quarts of oil on the track if the engine blows!
And for those that don’t change the precharge level – your crank will hitting the oil anytime you are under 40 psi….Oil Margarits for all!
Chris White
First off it is important to understand a couple of things –
1) at stock ‘max’ oil level (by dipstick mark) the oil level is with in an inch of the crank (top of the lower sump).
2) The reason for the rod bearing failure has nothing to do with the pick up being uncovered – this is not possible unless you run well over two quarts low. I was at the Glen earlier this year and checked on a 944 stock class race car that was next to me in the garage – no oil showing on the dipstick after a track session. Rod bearing did not destruct.
3) The ‘real’ reason for the rod bearing issue is the 90 degree ‘bend’ in the crankshaft oil drilling. This causes a severe flow problem along with a starvation due to centrifugal forces issue.
4) Aerating of the oil due to contact with the crank will aggravate item number 3, and you can’t prevent this unless you go to a dry sump system. Under braking (at least track braking at 1G) half of the oil in the pan will flow to the front on the engine – where there is only about ½” of clearance between the crank and the pan. At this point you are making Oil Margaritas!
The Accusump is a passive device that injects additional oil when a drop in pressure is sensed – it typically comes precharged to dump oil when the pressure drops below 40 psi. So when ever you drop below 40 psi it will add oil….for more Oil Margaritas!
As some folks have mentioned they lowered this precharge to 5-6 psi – I will give them credit for thinking of this but it won’t help the rod bearing issue – to defeat the starvation issue you need to keep the oil pressure as high as possible and the aeration as little as possible – adding oil at 5 psi will not help (it doesn’t really hurt either – once your engine is at 5 psi while out on the track you are toast anyway…)
The electronic valve is not an intelligent device – it is simply a remote on/off valve, it will not help the issue – but it does make for a nice preoiler.
So, I will agree that if you reduce the precharge of the accusump you are not doing any harm….but no good either. In worst case it just means that you will dump an extra 3 quarts of oil on the track if the engine blows!
And for those that don’t change the precharge level – your crank will hitting the oil anytime you are under 40 psi….Oil Margarits for all!
Chris White
Originally Posted by Chris White
The problem with the 944 oiling system is aeration of the oil. Basically the oil gets whipped up in to a froth by the crank. Oil foam is not a good lubricant.
The oil level in the pan of a 944 is within ½” of the crank, now add in a little lateral force or braking force and the oil hits the crank. Oddly enough the popular Accusump fix will only make this worse as it dumps a couple of extra quarts in to the sump at hot idle.
Dry sumping is the only ‘real’ fix and a done correctly figure a starting costs of $3 to 4k. Of course you could get fancy and spend a bunch more….
The oil level in the pan of a 944 is within ½” of the crank, now add in a little lateral force or braking force and the oil hits the crank. Oddly enough the popular Accusump fix will only make this worse as it dumps a couple of extra quarts in to the sump at hot idle.
Dry sumping is the only ‘real’ fix and a done correctly figure a starting costs of $3 to 4k. Of course you could get fancy and spend a bunch more….
#19
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My car has run an Accusump for over 7 years. Oil pressure is fine hot and as far as I know, no bearing failure. I don't know if it also has baffles and a cross-drilled crank.
#20
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Since we're going to get into a little more detail (with apologies, since NONE of this applies to you guys, pretty sure no-one out there's running a 2.0L! LOL)...
Oblig 944 content:
+1 to what's been said about aeration and the crank oil passages... not to mention harmonics. Milledge has the hook-up for the C-M anti-foam setup, apparently one of the necessities to make those 2.5/2.7/3.0's live.
As for me... my hot oil pressure's great... usually 2-3 bar at speed (up to 6k rpm). Yeah, I know, you're thinking it's low. It's a full-built race motor, intended to have that low pressure. Anything more seems to just be drag. FWIW I usually run Valvoline VR1 race oil, though I use Redline for those really big races/tracks. Normally 924's will pump out up to 9bar stock cold idle (unless they're shagged-out)!
As mentioned, I have the crank scraper and Accusump; no other mods are allowed in my class, especially not dry-sumping. So far, it's lived, though I fragged a full set of lifters @ Mid-O last year (while setting a new lap record! 7500rpm downshifts suck! )... hot idle oil pressure is only maybe 0.5 bar or less - gotta keep those revs up while she cools. Oil temp never really gets abot 220-230C on the hottest days.
Just another (out there) data point)...
Oblig 944 content:
+1 to what's been said about aeration and the crank oil passages... not to mention harmonics. Milledge has the hook-up for the C-M anti-foam setup, apparently one of the necessities to make those 2.5/2.7/3.0's live.
As for me... my hot oil pressure's great... usually 2-3 bar at speed (up to 6k rpm). Yeah, I know, you're thinking it's low. It's a full-built race motor, intended to have that low pressure. Anything more seems to just be drag. FWIW I usually run Valvoline VR1 race oil, though I use Redline for those really big races/tracks. Normally 924's will pump out up to 9bar stock cold idle (unless they're shagged-out)!
As mentioned, I have the crank scraper and Accusump; no other mods are allowed in my class, especially not dry-sumping. So far, it's lived, though I fragged a full set of lifters @ Mid-O last year (while setting a new lap record! 7500rpm downshifts suck! )... hot idle oil pressure is only maybe 0.5 bar or less - gotta keep those revs up while she cools. Oil temp never really gets abot 220-230C on the hottest days.
Just another (out there) data point)...
#22
Three Wheelin'
Back when I was building up my 951, about 10 years ago (including building my engine-- a project chronicled in Excellence), I went through all of this, including the installation of an Accusump. I followed the advice of Jon Milledge, who I considered to be the most informed engine builder for these cars (likely he still is). Since then a lot more cars have been raced and a lot more is known, so I am not sure if the approaches I was advised to take are still valid. My general guess is that an oil/air separator is likely still a good idea (I used one from Jon), as well as extra oil cooling. I'd also guess some block and crankshaft mods are a good idea-- I'd try to find out from Jon, and I'd use Armando at CCR for the crank (which I did years ago).
I am just not sure what the current thought is about Accusumps. I have not spoken with Jon in quite a while, but I know many people that gave up on Accusumps. I do remember that my plumbing was pretty straightforward, including a CM oil filter into which the Accusump could dump. I used -12 lines throughout and the costs of all the mods weren't trivial when all added up.
I wonder how they compare today, and how they compare to a change to a dry sump system.
I am just not sure what the current thought is about Accusumps. I have not spoken with Jon in quite a while, but I know many people that gave up on Accusumps. I do remember that my plumbing was pretty straightforward, including a CM oil filter into which the Accusump could dump. I used -12 lines throughout and the costs of all the mods weren't trivial when all added up.
I wonder how they compare today, and how they compare to a change to a dry sump system.
#23
Am I correct in assuming that these crank scrapers would also be beneficial on the S2 ( 3.0L) motors?
I believe that they have an improved crankcase over the 2.5 motors but don't know enough to be sure...
I believe that they have an improved crankcase over the 2.5 motors but don't know enough to be sure...
#24
The accusump will not fix the #2 oiling issue........the only way to eliminate the problem is to stop air pickup in the pan. Never let the oil pickup tube stop pulling oil and get uncovered. Use the Lindsey Baffle kit as stated before. I've run the same block and crank for years and changed the bearings after 40 hours with the baffle kit without any issues. You can drill the crank or add a sump all you want but if you starve the bearing of oil it will fail. Don't throw away good money on all the other stuff, just spend the $60 for the kit and put new bearings in as needed, you will never have a problem.
#25
Much as been written in various threads here regarding the bearing problem. I think its widely accepted that the likely problem is foaming of the oil. The subject that I have not seen discussed as a precaution is the use of race oil versus street grade oils. All oils developed for street use, cheap or expensive, dino or synthetic, have detergents added to keep the insides free of contaminants due to the longer change cycles. A good race oil has no detergents or cleaning additives. Years ago a local race engineer did a demonstration during one of his seminars on this. He took a regular household beater to a bowl full of a popular street rated synthetic. It frothed up like a Starbuck's latte. he did the same to Red Line's "race" oil and there were maybe a few bubbles, but thats it. Tremendous difference. Since then I only use an Ester based race oil.
For what its worth.
BTW, I would be interested in hearing more about the Mildege air/oil seperator?
For what its worth.
BTW, I would be interested in hearing more about the Mildege air/oil seperator?
#26
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Very interesting, Daigo!!!
From what I've seen, the Milledge unit is a C-M unit with the appropriate stuff for a 944.
From what I've seen, the Milledge unit is a C-M unit with the appropriate stuff for a 944.
#27
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The argument that centrifugal forces on hot oil (low density, low mass) in a crank oiling system can overcome a 75 psig engine oil gear pump is silly.
I don't know what causes #2 failure, either, but it isn't centrifugal forces.
I don't know what causes #2 failure, either, but it isn't centrifugal forces.
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I've got a Milledge unit on an 89 951. A while ago, John from Vitesse said he thought it might be plumbed backwards. Does anyone know how it should be installed?
#29
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Canton-Mecca.
I've heard (from those well in a position to know) that the 944 issue is due to harmonics...
I've heard (from those well in a position to know) that the 944 issue is due to harmonics...