Veloce Raptor

Oh, I think so. But I am highly amused my your selective outrage...







Professional Racing and Driving Coach

mark kibort

That might be true.

Point is, it was my opinon, experience, and logic that compelled me to provide a reason for why "shufflesteering" might be a bad idea for most. (in road racing). I dont believe that points to any perception on my part, that the universe was revolving around me.

so, since you are the "professional", I guess your opinion and view is the only one that matters. I just want to make sure I get it right. Last I looked, I thought this was a "discussion" forum. Its not wikepedia tough guy!

Veloce Raptor

No, Mark, my opinion is not the only one that matters. However, you made a perjorative judgement that is not borne out by reality, and I simply pointed that out. By the way, someone else who occasionally shuffles on track? Brian Redman. I have been in the right seat with him and have witnessed it firsthand.







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Larry Herman

Whoa Big Boy! You didn't think that you were going to slip that one by us did you?

Gotta put that in my sig for eternity!

Veloce Raptor

What can I say? Sometime the truth is worth immortalizing.







Professional Racing and Driving Coach

Bull

VR is simply acknowledging his multiple personalities, and all of those opinions matter equally.

Veloce Raptor

LOL! Larry and I are more alike than he cares to admit.







Professional Racing and Driving Coach

mark kibort

Again, just because some of the old school guys do it, doesnt make it right or something that should be, taught. Again, go back to my ski racing analogy. styles change, improve, more drivers are around to compete which raises the bar. Besides, Brian was battling those BIG V12s and maybe needed shufflesteering to get a wider range of steering input to keep those rear ends undercontrol .

As I mentioned, there are many that can still turn a hot lap doing it. I contend when things get squirrely, the leverage on the steering wheel can be different enough, when hands are out of position, as to cause issues. (e.g. going into a turn, with the hands cheating up, gives more leverage that can induce some oversteer. Then, the corrective force, and range is less in the other direction and CAN contribute to driver not being able to bring the car back under control.)

I dont know if you have any flying experience, but the analogy is similar to trim settings. If you are flying and im in the right seat moving the trim constantly, its harder to correct when you have to, quickly. (like on a landing) . Following that analogy, im sure there are (were) pilots like Bob Hoover that could have you change the trim, while he pours coffee into a cup during a barrel roll and wouldnt know the difference.

mk

Larry Herman

I think that all the hoopla about shuffle-steering causing crashes is pretty much moot. Chances are if you don't realize that you have a problem and are behind the car, it doesn't matter where your hands are, you are already late in whatever correction that you are going to apply. Shuffle-steering or hands locked at 9 & 3 will make no difference. Additionally with sports cars and their slow steering, there are situations that call for massive turning of the wheel, and the only way to get it done is to move your hands.

IMHO the bottom line here is that as a beginning driver you should be taught the line, proper steering technique (i.e. hands at 9 & 3 or so), etc until you have established a good foundation for driving, a well developed a feel for the car and some decent car control. It's called fundamentals.

To move beyond that, everyone is going to use a different bag of tools to press the limit and save their a$$es when they exceed it. It's because everyone's brain is wired differently. And everyone has a different ability to feel and save the car. There are plenty of drivers who have crashed with their hands firmly locked at 9 & 3. Conversely, I have seen drivers practically "palm" the wheel and save it because they knew exactly how far to turn the wheel by feel, talent and lots of experience. I think that this topic needs to be discussed in context, and not as an absolute dictum for all circumstances.

mark kibort

I totally agree. heck, I have some video of myself doing exactly what you are saying. The better the driver, the less this is an issue in spinning the wheel full lock to lock as they try to gather the car back up. NO question, if a wider range is needed, climbing the wheel is the only way to correct. Look no farther than the drifters, ice racers, ralley racers, etc.

But, shufflesteering when you dont need to be, might/can cause problem in inducing oversteer and lessen the effect of the corrective action. I have a few videos of others that have been caused by this. Ill see if i can dig them up. I think Hartely in his viper had a good example of this at his WC debut at Sebring back in '05 if i remember correctly.

mk

Bryan Watts

How does shuffle steering cause oversteer that you didn't intend or lessen the effect of a corrective action? The wrong amount and/or the wrong rate of steering input will cause the things you say, but I fail to see how one method of turning the wheel automatically results in the results you outline. Are the tires somehow able to sense whether you hand moves on the wheel at which point they decide not to grip the ground? I know tires are a bit of a black art/science, but I had NO IDEA that they could tell how your hands were placed on the wheel.

Sounds like you're projecting mistakes made by people who move their hands on the wheels onto the method the driver used rather than the inputs the driver made.

Veloce Raptor

I think that Larry and Brian make excellent points here, and especially to Larry's: yes, many of us in this thread have been trying to introduce context into the absolutes that keep getting shoveled at us in 500 word increments.

Mark, regarding your partial quote above, I have a two part response. (1) Brian was driving a 964 Cup car when I rode with him. I don't believe they went head to head with V12 cars. And even if they did, your point is spurious at best, and frankly not relevant or informed. (2) Your opinion is your right, but I will happily take driving and racing instruction from Brian Redman (an "old school guy" in your lingo) over you any day of the week, regardless of whether you think it's "right" or should or should not be taught.

I mean that in the nicest possible way.







Professional Racing and Driving Coach

Flying Finn

No shuffle!

I don't think airbag matter on this at all. The chance of it deploying without a crash must be next to zero and when you're crashing, I don't think you'll be crossing your arms other than maybe for praying.

Sebring hairpin.

Bryan Watts

Finn - Your picture is the exact situation I HATE being in and is the reason I personally prefer to move my hands on the wheel. At least to me, your left hand is in an awkward position and there's no way your right hand can be on the wheel (which leaves most people to simply wrap their thumb around the wheel spoke). If you need to make a correction, you're now using muscles on your arms/shoulders that you don't normally use for the intitial "pull down with your inside hand" portion of the steering action (up until the point your hands cross each other) or you're using them in a different way...any corrections are made by your left hand in a pull up motion with a hand that is already flexed awkwardly. Meanwhile, if I move at least one of my hands before turning in, I can make sure that my hands never/barely cross, leaving room to easily make both MORE or LESS turning motion as needed, without further crossing my already wrapped up arms or trying to uncross arms that are nearly touching at the elbow while using different muscles and having both my hands in awkward positions at awkward angles on the wheel. I'm never left needing to thumb at the wheel with my inside hand and I can make quick, accurate corrections at the apex because my arms are more parallel to each other.

Larry Herman

Yeah, I was kind of wondering what Petu would do too if he had to add a little more steering input!