hand positions with and without an airbag? need advise
03-05-2009, 03:04 PM
#16
Rennlist Member
Bryan,
I watched this and other videos. You drive pretty well! I dont think your little hand shift qualifies as shufflesteering. By the way, VJ is no pro. Well, yes he has done a few pro races. He has gotten much better over the last few years, but remember he is a BMW club guy that races with strom, matesso, Warren, cervantes, etc and all of these guys only differ much due to their cars, not tallent. I think Warren of the best of the bunch out west. Oh yeah, I guess he is a pro too, because he ran a few WC races.
. You should come out west and do Laguna!
I wonder if VJ was shufflesteering when he over corrected on that turn exit.
mk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjyD4...e=channel_page
VJ is a racing TV star. Good for him. I like this interview when he quotes his ST speed of 155mph at laguna seca
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azg312pRwLA
I watched this and other videos. You drive pretty well! I dont think your little hand shift qualifies as shufflesteering. By the way, VJ is no pro. Well, yes he has done a few pro races. He has gotten much better over the last few years, but remember he is a BMW club guy that races with strom, matesso, Warren, cervantes, etc and all of these guys only differ much due to their cars, not tallent. I think Warren of the best of the bunch out west. Oh yeah, I guess he is a pro too, because he ran a few WC races.
. You should come out west and do Laguna! I wonder if VJ was shufflesteering when he over corrected on that turn exit.
mk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjyD4...e=channel_page
VJ is a racing TV star. Good for him. I like this interview when he quotes his ST speed of 155mph at laguna seca
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azg312pRwLA
Last edited by mark kibort; 03-05-2009 at 03:22 PM.
03-05-2009, 03:55 PM
#17
Drifting
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Well aware of that. That video is meant to be tongue in cheek. In fact, I forgot I even had that video publicly shared...originally just had it available for a select few. Hell, might as well leave it up now.
It didn't stop him from telling me he was a Pro the one time we raced at Watkins Glen. He was nice enough to inform me that it was "ok" that I lost to him because he was a PRO driver.
Nevermind that I had gone from last place (I had no qual time because I was sharing the car) to 1st in 2 laps in the rain, only to purposefully let him back by me because he kept trying to force the issue in really rough conditions (figuring I'd let him run out front and make the mistake rather than me trying to dial things back and have him forcing the issue in every turn for 20-30 minutes...I had plenty left to pass him later in the race and check out with 1-2 laps to go), and then to have the race cut short after only 3-4 laps much to my and everyone else's surprise, resulting in him getting the win.
I handed the tool his only win of the weekend and he decided to use it as a means to prop up his own ego that barely fit in his helmet, acting as if I was lucky to stick so close to him on the track because he was so good.
Ultimately, the race was dropped from the standings because we didn't complete enough laps to be considered a race. Poor VJ.
And oh yeah, in the video you linked, VJ actually got pissed at Barry for making "too aggressive" of a pass. This, coming from a guy who spent all weekend telling us he was a Pro.
It didn't stop him from telling me he was a Pro the one time we raced at Watkins Glen. He was nice enough to inform me that it was "ok" that I lost to him because he was a PRO driver.
Nevermind that I had gone from last place (I had no qual time because I was sharing the car) to 1st in 2 laps in the rain, only to purposefully let him back by me because he kept trying to force the issue in really rough conditions (figuring I'd let him run out front and make the mistake rather than me trying to dial things back and have him forcing the issue in every turn for 20-30 minutes...I had plenty left to pass him later in the race and check out with 1-2 laps to go), and then to have the race cut short after only 3-4 laps much to my and everyone else's surprise, resulting in him getting the win.I handed the tool his only win of the weekend and he decided to use it as a means to prop up his own ego that barely fit in his helmet, acting as if I was lucky to stick so close to him on the track because he was so good.
Ultimately, the race was dropped from the standings because we didn't complete enough laps to be considered a race. Poor VJ.
And oh yeah, in the video you linked, VJ actually got pissed at Barry for making "too aggressive" of a pass. This, coming from a guy who spent all weekend telling us he was a Pro.
03-05-2009, 04:18 PM
#18
Rennlist Member
You've seen fast pros get into accidents BECAUSE of shuffle steering or WHILE shuffle steering? Exactly what sort of accident did they get into that could have totally been avoided by not shuffle steering? Any specific incident you can give us the details of?
How exactly do you know this? I can tell you from 11+ years of experience now that I have never once lost knowledge of the position of the wheel. The mind is capable of remembering how much you've turned the wheel just as easily as it can remember that your arms being back at 9 & 3 means straight along with 1000 other things it's processing while you're driving. Besides that, knowing where straight is is WAY overrated anyway. As long as I can feel the way the car is reacting and see/sense which way the car is traveling, knowing exactly where to find "center" is pretty worthless. Would I teach someone from a start to drive the way I do? No. Would I teach someone to drive the way you do? No.
Your analogy sucks. If I pass you a steering wheel that you weren't previously controlling and you place your hands at 9&3, you have no idea where center is either. Is center to the right or left? One round of the wheel or two?
How exactly do you know this? I can tell you from 11+ years of experience now that I have never once lost knowledge of the position of the wheel. The mind is capable of remembering how much you've turned the wheel just as easily as it can remember that your arms being back at 9 & 3 means straight along with 1000 other things it's processing while you're driving. Besides that, knowing where straight is is WAY overrated anyway. As long as I can feel the way the car is reacting and see/sense which way the car is traveling, knowing exactly where to find "center" is pretty worthless. Would I teach someone from a start to drive the way I do? No. Would I teach someone to drive the way you do? No.
Your analogy sucks. If I pass you a steering wheel that you weren't previously controlling and you place your hands at 9&3, you have no idea where center is either. Is center to the right or left? One round of the wheel or two?
Professional Racing and Driving Coach
03-05-2009, 04:20 PM
#19
Rennlist Member
03-05-2009, 06:11 PM
#20
Rennlist Member
Can't remember the two instructors in question, but the author made it a point that one of the instructors was advocating shuffle steering while the other did not. Just imagine how good that shuffle steering instructor would have been had they broken that bad habit!
Tough to argue with the Legends, different strokes for different folks. (cue VR posting funny picture from TV series)
03-05-2009, 06:16 PM
#21
Rennlist Member
And thats always been my point as well. Guys that shufflesteer, usually do that out of a bad habit that will latch on exuses so that they dont have to change. (air bag, cross arms, etc) its a bad habit, no matter what perspective you are coming from. I would rather have a newbie let go of one hand if he is that worried about an air bag release and an impact. If you are not shufflesteering, you are not as likely to hit that wall or get the car that bent out of shape anyway.
mk
mk
Mark I have no interest in beating you up again a la the torque/HP threads. However, this is just not factual. For one thing, shuffling is quite viable when large steering angles are required at relatively low speeds. In addition, shuffling is also viable (as another poster stated) when you have a very large steering wheel (such as old Porsches and Benzes). Third, there is absolutely no correleation between shuffling and collisions or losses of control. And finally, regarding what I have taken the liberty to bold, above....ay ay ay. That speaks for itself. The only time a driver/student whould remove a hand from the wheel on track is to shift gears. Period.
Professional Racing and Driving Coach
03-05-2009, 06:41 PM
#22
Three Wheelin'
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03-05-2009, 06:41 PM
#23
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I think we agree here. Ive already mentioned autocross which makes your point. Trust me, you didnt beat me up on the HP -Torque discussion, you were just a PITA. Factually, nothing i said was other than true. You mentioned an isolated, unrelated example that eventually, those that know, can in to agree with me in entirety. What we are talking about here is style. You teach things that might not be taught by others. There are many ways to skin the cat. as there is in performing other types of sport activities.
What i advocate may not be factual and more style, but it does make sense and is used by most top drivers. There are quite a few shuffle steerers that Ive helped break the habit that seemed to gain a heck of a lot more control when on the track. heck, on the street, i think one of those bus ball grips is fine.
To your third point, i also dont think the hands should be off the wheel unless you are shifting as well. but if you go to lock with the sterring wheel, its going to be hard to hold on to the wheel with both hands the entire time. But, I would advise removing the crossed hand rather than shuffle steering in such an extreme case. coming out of that turn, with power on oversteer , I feel, (my opinion) your control would be better. Kind of a style choice at that point.
Mk
What i advocate may not be factual and more style, but it does make sense and is used by most top drivers. There are quite a few shuffle steerers that Ive helped break the habit that seemed to gain a heck of a lot more control when on the track. heck, on the street, i think one of those bus ball grips is fine.
To your third point, i also dont think the hands should be off the wheel unless you are shifting as well. but if you go to lock with the sterring wheel, its going to be hard to hold on to the wheel with both hands the entire time. But, I would advise removing the crossed hand rather than shuffle steering in such an extreme case. coming out of that turn, with power on oversteer , I feel, (my opinion) your control would be better. Kind of a style choice at that point.
Mk
Mark I have no interest in beating you up again a la the torque/HP threads. However, this is just not factual. For one thing, shuffling is quite viable when large steering angles are required at relatively low speeds. In addition, shuffling is also viable (as another poster stated) when you have a very large steering wheel (such as old Porsches and Benzes). Third, there is absolutely no correleation between shuffling and collisions or losses of control. And finally, regarding what I have taken the liberty to bold, above....ay ay ay. That speaks for itself. The only time a driver/student whould remove a hand from the wheel on track is to shift gears. Period.
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03-05-2009, 06:52 PM
#24
Rennlist Member
I think we agree here. Ive already mentioned autocross which makes your point. Trust me, you didnt beat me up on the HP -Torque discussion, you were just a PITA. Factually, nothing i said was other than true. You mentioned an isolated, unrelated example that eventually, those that know, can in to agree with me in entirety. What we are talking about here is style. You teach things that might not be taught by others.
Mk
Mk
Anyway, there are very, very few corners on very, very few tracks that require more steering input than ~200 degrees of wheel rotation. If one cannot handle that without removing one's hands, perhaps other sports beckon. That said, some people (like Bryan) do it by choice or habit, and it seems to really work well for them. For you to summarily pronouce this a "bad habit" is factually incorrect and borderline insulting to guys like Bryan who I would bet on in pretty much any race they enter.
That said, on track, I do not shuffle steer. But I do shuffle steer in certain circumstances in SUV's and large sedans in urban environments, and I (along with the DSS, USSS, etc.) do teach same to my EP/CT/anti-kidnapping clients....with excellent results, again in certain circumstances.
Greg, LOL!
Professional Racing and Driving Coach
03-05-2009, 06:53 PM
#25
Rennlist Member
Bryan! I love it! That is so funny. Ive only met him a few times, but my good friend and BMW racer buddy (nameless ) Was spending a weekend last season with VJ. He was real quick because of the car he had brought out. He was talking as if it was only his driving ability now that he was pro, that generated the phenomial lap times (LOL). keep in mind, his "Pro" status started last year and his first race was 3 years ago Anyway, it was pretty funny hearing the things he was boasting about , now that he was a professional driver now! When he pulled some of that crap in another conversation with my friend, he started to call him on it, and got the smarts to just walk away.
I like the fact that he didnt like that pass you or the other guy put on him at the glen. i thought that was some great driving. If he didnt hit him, whats the problem???
Anway, cool videos . great to watch while we wait for our first races. the long cold off season almost over. Almost time for us to get our fix again!
Mk
) Was spending a weekend last season with VJ. He was real quick because of the car he had brought out. He was talking as if it was only his driving ability now that he was pro, that generated the phenomial lap times (LOL). keep in mind, his "Pro" status started last year and his first race was 3 years ago Anyway, it was pretty funny hearing the things he was boasting about , now that he was a professional driver now! When he pulled some of that crap in another conversation with my friend, he started to call him on it, and got the smarts to just walk away.I like the fact that he didnt like that pass you or the other guy put on him at the glen. i thought that was some great driving. If he didnt hit him, whats the problem???
Anway, cool videos . great to watch while we wait for our first races. the long cold off season almost over. Almost time for us to get our fix again!
Mk
Well aware of that. That video is meant to be tongue in cheek. In fact, I forgot I even had that video publicly shared...originally just had it available for a select few. Hell, might as well leave it up now.
It didn't stop him from telling me he was a Pro the one time we raced at Watkins Glen. He was nice enough to inform me that it was "ok" that I lost to him because he was a PRO driver. Nevermind that I had gone from last place (I had no qual time because I was sharing the car) to 1st in 2 laps in the rain, only to purposefully let him back by me because he kept trying to force the issue in really rough conditions (figuring I'd let him run out front and make the mistake rather than me trying to dial things back and have him forcing the issue in every turn for 20-30 minutes...I had plenty left to pass him later in the race and check out with 1-2 laps to go), and then to have the race cut short after only 3-4 laps much to my and everyone else's surprise, resulting in him getting the win.
I handed the tool his only win of the weekend and he decided to use it as a means to prop up his own ego that barely fit in his helmet, acting as if I was lucky to stick so close to him on the track because he was so good.
Ultimately, the race was dropped from the standings because we didn't complete enough laps to be considered a race. Poor VJ.
And oh yeah, in the video you linked, VJ actually got pissed at Barry for making "too aggressive" of a pass. This, coming from a guy who spent all weekend telling us he was a Pro.
It didn't stop him from telling me he was a Pro the one time we raced at Watkins Glen. He was nice enough to inform me that it was "ok" that I lost to him because he was a PRO driver.
Nevermind that I had gone from last place (I had no qual time because I was sharing the car) to 1st in 2 laps in the rain, only to purposefully let him back by me because he kept trying to force the issue in really rough conditions (figuring I'd let him run out front and make the mistake rather than me trying to dial things back and have him forcing the issue in every turn for 20-30 minutes...I had plenty left to pass him later in the race and check out with 1-2 laps to go), and then to have the race cut short after only 3-4 laps much to my and everyone else's surprise, resulting in him getting the win.I handed the tool his only win of the weekend and he decided to use it as a means to prop up his own ego that barely fit in his helmet, acting as if I was lucky to stick so close to him on the track because he was so good.
Ultimately, the race was dropped from the standings because we didn't complete enough laps to be considered a race. Poor VJ.
And oh yeah, in the video you linked, VJ actually got pissed at Barry for making "too aggressive" of a pass. This, coming from a guy who spent all weekend telling us he was a Pro.
03-05-2009, 07:01 PM
#26
Rennlist Member
The discussion is on the track. most all turns do not require shuffle steer at speed, as you know, as you go faster, there is less and less steering input required. Yes, going through the pits and paddock, ive been known to shufflesteer . Bryan doesnt shuffle steer from what i can tell.
remember that bozo on you-tube that rolled his porsche? thats shufflesteering.
Here is your shufflesteerer with his helpful instructional video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzwUbsaEhAQ
As i said, there is a point where shuffle steering could be an disadvantage in some circumstances. (unplanned car attitude, etc) thats probably why you dont do it, or bryan doesnt do it. Moving the hands up to cheat up a little is not shufflesteering in my book.
mk
. Bryan doesnt shuffle steer from what i can tell. remember that bozo on you-tube that rolled his porsche? thats shufflesteering.
Here is your shufflesteerer with his helpful instructional video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzwUbsaEhAQ
As i said, there is a point where shuffle steering could be an disadvantage in some circumstances. (unplanned car attitude, etc) thats probably why you dont do it, or bryan doesnt do it. Moving the hands up to cheat up a little is not shufflesteering in my book.
mk
...and then there is reality.
Anyway, there are very, very few corners on very, very few tracks that require more steering input than ~200 degrees of wheel rotation. If one cannot handle that without removing one's hands, perhaps other sports beckon. That said, some people (like Bryan) do it by choice or habit, and it seems to really work well for them. For you to summarily pronouce this a "bad habit" is factually incorrect and borderline insulting to guys like Bryan who I would bet on in pretty much any race they enter.
That said, on track, I do not shuffle steer. But I do shuffle steer in certain circumstances in SUV's and large sedans in urban environments, and I (along with the DSS, USSS, etc.) do teach same to my EP/CT/anti-kidnapping clients....with excellent results, again in certain circumstances.
Greg, LOL!
Professional Racing and Driving Coach
Anyway, there are very, very few corners on very, very few tracks that require more steering input than ~200 degrees of wheel rotation. If one cannot handle that without removing one's hands, perhaps other sports beckon. That said, some people (like Bryan) do it by choice or habit, and it seems to really work well for them. For you to summarily pronouce this a "bad habit" is factually incorrect and borderline insulting to guys like Bryan who I would bet on in pretty much any race they enter.
That said, on track, I do not shuffle steer. But I do shuffle steer in certain circumstances in SUV's and large sedans in urban environments, and I (along with the DSS, USSS, etc.) do teach same to my EP/CT/anti-kidnapping clients....with excellent results, again in certain circumstances.
Greg, LOL!
Professional Racing and Driving Coach
Last edited by mark kibort; 03-05-2009 at 07:19 PM.
03-05-2009, 09:08 PM
#28
Rennlist Member
03-06-2009, 10:22 AM
#29
Drifting
One of the car mags recently had a write-up about the Porsche Driving School Legends Program. The instructors are Hurley Haywood, Vic Elford, Brian Redman, Derek Bell, and Patrick Long.
Can't remember the two instructors in question, but the author made it a point that one of the instructors was advocating shuffle steering while the other did not. Just imagine how good that shuffle steering instructor would have been had they broken that bad habit!
Tough to argue with the Legends, different strokes for different folks. (cue VR posting funny picture from TV series)
Can't remember the two instructors in question, but the author made it a point that one of the instructors was advocating shuffle steering while the other did not. Just imagine how good that shuffle steering instructor would have been had they broken that bad habit!
Tough to argue with the Legends, different strokes for different folks. (cue VR posting funny picture from TV series)
Just read the article this morning, Feb 23, 2009 AutoWeek, Lessons of Legends
Derek Bell criticized the authors hands, they should never move from 9 and 3, "You are shuffling!" Next instructor was Hurley Haywood "Of course, you must shuffle!"
03-06-2009, 10:45 AM
#30
Race Director
I say just drive the dang car.