does less friction help with a road racing car
03-03-2009, 12:04 PM
#1
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
does less friction help with a road racing car
when i drag raced and raced karts i had ceramic bearings and coated all my products and it really helped with rolling resistance. Just wondering if it would help on a road racing car. A friend and myself figured if you eliminate any rolling resistance it has to help no matter what type of racing you are doing.
If you guys are interested for any ball bearings call
Dave at World Wide Bearings 973-857-6464 www.worldwidebearings.com
another gentleman Craig at MicroBlue would coat all of the rears, gears, etc and made a hug difference.
http://www.microblueracing.com/custo...r_services.php
tell either one Anthony Carbone sent you, they will take care of you. These guys like to help the little guys in racing.
If you guys are interested for any ball bearings call
Dave at World Wide Bearings 973-857-6464 www.worldwidebearings.com
another gentleman Craig at MicroBlue would coat all of the rears, gears, etc and made a hug difference.
http://www.microblueracing.com/custo...r_services.php
tell either one Anthony Carbone sent you, they will take care of you. These guys like to help the little guys in racing.
03-03-2009, 01:27 PM
#3
Rennlist Member
Yes, less friction frees up the moving parts of the car similar to what you used in drag racing. Anything to help the car become more efficient at going fast will help with lap times
03-03-2009, 02:37 PM
#5
Burning Brakes
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Bearing resistance also increases heat, which can cause failure over time.
Having just blown 6 axles (CV joints) at the 24hrs of Daytona, I can tell you that we have revisited our "axle strategy" and it includes better finishes on races and bearings.
Can't talk to the effectiveness of ceramic coating, but in the end, heat is the enemy, so if you can reduce it (without sacrifice performance) that's got to be for the better.
Having just blown 6 axles (CV joints) at the 24hrs of Daytona, I can tell you that we have revisited our "axle strategy" and it includes better finishes on races and bearings.
Can't talk to the effectiveness of ceramic coating, but in the end, heat is the enemy, so if you can reduce it (without sacrifice performance) that's got to be for the better.
03-03-2009, 02:48 PM
#6
Drifting
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Absolutely...engine internals can be coated for less friction. Transmission and diff internals are polished and coated for less friction. Bearings are packed with different lubricants for less friction. Engine, transmission and diff oils of lighter weights are used for less friction. When I ran open wheel cars, we occasionally used different viscosity of oils in our transaxle depending on whether we were running practice/testing or qualifying/racing.
03-03-2009, 03:10 PM
#7
Race Director
yes friction = bad.
However the real question is not will it help, becuase it will, but will it make a noticeable difference on track? How does it impact the cost vs. durability vs. speed equation?
However the real question is not will it help, becuase it will, but will it make a noticeable difference on track? How does it impact the cost vs. durability vs. speed equation?
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03-03-2009, 03:17 PM
#8
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03-03-2009, 05:31 PM
#9
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exactly!
we do this measurement on the dyno. (at least the rolling friction ). I found that from 150mph to 80mph it was about 20hp loss due to friction and below that it was near 10hp. that was the total rolling friction, on the dyno, but only the rear tires, and all components moving through the diff while in idle. obviously, there is gear oil, rolling friction, bearing friction. If you have seen the bearings in a porsche, you know they are top notch. there is very little bearing friction in a porsche. rolling friction is big factor, and with sticky tires, it will far exceed anything you can change on the bearing side of things. Hey, use wesson oil in your gear box. that viscosity in there is probably the primary cause of rolling drag. We are talking oz-ins of force. 1/100ths of HP in rollling friction. Now, for VR, we can look at HP lost at 100mph at near 10hp and figure out the friction needed to impact this value in terms of Torque.
Its going to be a REAL small number, in the range of 10ft-lbs of drag. (near 2ft-lbs of torque to the engine) . Now, put a torque wrench on your wheels and see what it takes to move them. A few ounces? what does it take to move your car on a flat surface? what could you hope to change that number to?
The improvement number is what you are looking at and it will be at fractional levels of HP saved.
most gear boxes are about 85% efficient at high rpm. (this changes also with differenct gear reduction levels) If you could change this to be a better number with less friction in the gear boxes, you could gain some noticable HP. However, this would be extremely hard to do, even with space age coatings, gear materials and tighter tollerances.
mk
we do this measurement on the dyno. (at least the rolling friction ). I found that from 150mph to 80mph it was about 20hp loss due to friction and below that it was near 10hp. that was the total rolling friction, on the dyno, but only the rear tires, and all components moving through the diff while in idle. obviously, there is gear oil, rolling friction, bearing friction. If you have seen the bearings in a porsche, you know they are top notch. there is very little bearing friction in a porsche. rolling friction is big factor, and with sticky tires, it will far exceed anything you can change on the bearing side of things. Hey, use wesson oil in your gear box. that viscosity in there is probably the primary cause of rolling drag. We are talking oz-ins of force. 1/100ths of HP in rollling friction. Now, for VR, we can look at HP lost at 100mph at near 10hp and figure out the friction needed to impact this value in terms of Torque.
Its going to be a REAL small number, in the range of 10ft-lbs of drag. (near 2ft-lbs of torque to the engine) . Now, put a torque wrench on your wheels and see what it takes to move them. A few ounces? what does it take to move your car on a flat surface? what could you hope to change that number to?
The improvement number is what you are looking at and it will be at fractional levels of HP saved.
most gear boxes are about 85% efficient at high rpm. (this changes also with differenct gear reduction levels) If you could change this to be a better number with less friction in the gear boxes, you could gain some noticable HP. However, this would be extremely hard to do, even with space age coatings, gear materials and tighter tollerances.
mk
03-03-2009, 05:45 PM
#10
Burning Brakes
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The problem we had with our axles at Daytona were a direct result of heat. The heat caused the grease to break down, which caused the boots to break down, and the CV joints failed. (Apparently we were running 1200 lbs rear springs instead of the 1800 lbs rear springs that proved to be a better choice).
If we could have kept the heat down in those CV joints by polishing the bearings and races better than they came from the factory (which wouldn't be hard), we would not have been in the pits for 170 laps replacing axles.
So it may not have a direct, measurable, or meaningful effect on rolling resistance or HP, but as to the longevity of the part, it would have all the difference.
If we could have kept the heat down in those CV joints by polishing the bearings and races better than they came from the factory (which wouldn't be hard), we would not have been in the pits for 170 laps replacing axles.
So it may not have a direct, measurable, or meaningful effect on rolling resistance or HP, but as to the longevity of the part, it would have all the difference.
03-03-2009, 05:55 PM
#11
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Is there anything you aren't an expert in Mark? 
Some of us actually use data acquisition, believe it or not, and know whether things work or not. In a Formula Mazda, the difference between Redline Lightweight Shockproof and Redline Superlight Shockproof can be seen in data when doing controlled acceleration runs.
Looking to a place like Spec Miata with very limited legal modifications and lots of competition is where you see people getting really creative with limiting friction. Some of the guys I knew when I was running Spec Miata did a lot of work/testing around adjusting toe to find a balance between handling and straightaway speed. In such a low powered car, some folks err very much on the side of giving up handling to gain straightaway speed. It was very noticeable in the draft. If folks really are using 45 minute bearings in Spec Miata, I'm tempted to assume they've found an advantage to doing so.
A couple hp can be a big deal. Surely you of all people, Mr. Electric Supercharger, can attest to that?
Some of us actually use data acquisition, believe it or not, and know whether things work or not. In a Formula Mazda, the difference between Redline Lightweight Shockproof and Redline Superlight Shockproof can be seen in data when doing controlled acceleration runs.
Looking to a place like Spec Miata with very limited legal modifications and lots of competition is where you see people getting really creative with limiting friction. Some of the guys I knew when I was running Spec Miata did a lot of work/testing around adjusting toe to find a balance between handling and straightaway speed. In such a low powered car, some folks err very much on the side of giving up handling to gain straightaway speed. It was very noticeable in the draft. If folks really are using 45 minute bearings in Spec Miata, I'm tempted to assume they've found an advantage to doing so.
A couple hp can be a big deal. Surely you of all people, Mr. Electric Supercharger, can attest to that?
Last edited by Bryan Watts; 03-03-2009 at 06:20 PM.
03-03-2009, 06:16 PM
#13
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Thread Starter
we use to coat everything, the coatings we used we could not blow things up, people were running a qt of oil in the rear and trying to blow it up, we have done numerous 5 speed trannys. We have put bearings in dirt bikes and karts and could not blow them up. I just didnt know if the same would be true about road racing cars.
03-03-2009, 06:21 PM
#14
Rennlist Member
"Expert" because I toss a few well known values out there? Man, you are sensitive.
Yes, i mentioned that much of the loss is in the gear box. gear oil could be worth a couple of hp at the risk of increase wear. I was refering to wheel bearings and other low loss bearings that would be very expensive to modify and give minimal gains. engine internals is another, but that gets really pricey.
so what was the gains by using the lightweight redline oils? You have data aqu. so what was the result? HP saved? Certainly alignment will be a noticable gain, as it can be measured and compared pretty easily. the trade offs are better suited for your data aqu. systems.
remember I said, the gear box has a 15% loss associated in it. knock that down by 1% and that could be a big deal for a spec miata, Formula car , etc.
I could do it on my car, i suspect with a lighter weight gear oil, but wouldnt take that risk for a couple of HP when I can bolt on an electric supercharger and get 5 or 10!
mk
Is there anything you aren't an expert in Mark?
Some of us actually use data acquisition, believe it or not, and know whether things work or not. In a Formula Mazda, the difference between Redline Lightweight Shockproof and Reline Superlight Shockproof can be seen in data when doing controlled acceleration runs.
Looking to a place like Spec Miata with very limited legal modifications and lots of competition is where you see people getting really creative with limiting friction. Some of the guys I knew when I was running Spec Miata with did a lot of work adjusting toe to find a balance between handling and straightaway speed. In such a low powered car, some folks err very much on the side of giving up handling to gain straightaway speed. It was very noticeable in the draft. If folks really are using 45 minute bearings in Spec Miata, I'm tempted to assume they've found an advantage to doing so.
A couple hp can be a big deal. Surely you of all people, Mr. Electric Supercharger, can attest to that?
Some of us actually use data acquisition, believe it or not, and know whether things work or not. In a Formula Mazda, the difference between Redline Lightweight Shockproof and Reline Superlight Shockproof can be seen in data when doing controlled acceleration runs.
Looking to a place like Spec Miata with very limited legal modifications and lots of competition is where you see people getting really creative with limiting friction. Some of the guys I knew when I was running Spec Miata with did a lot of work adjusting toe to find a balance between handling and straightaway speed. In such a low powered car, some folks err very much on the side of giving up handling to gain straightaway speed. It was very noticeable in the draft. If folks really are using 45 minute bearings in Spec Miata, I'm tempted to assume they've found an advantage to doing so.
A couple hp can be a big deal. Surely you of all people, Mr. Electric Supercharger, can attest to that?
03-03-2009, 06:27 PM
#15
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Yes, i mentioned that much of the loss is in the gear box. gear oil could be worth a couple of hp at the risk of increase wear. I was refering to wheel bearings and other low loss bearings that would be very expensive to modify and give minimal gains. engine internals is another, but that gets really pricey.
remember I said, the gear box has a 15% loss associated in it. knock that down by 1% and that could be a big deal for a spec miata, Formula car , etc.
I could do it on my car, i suspect with a lighter weight gear oil, but wouldnt take that risk for a couple of HP when I can bolt on an electric supercharger and get 5 or 10!
mk