does less friction help with a road racing car
03-03-2009, 06:27 PM
#16
Rennlist Member
I bet coatings in the transmissions would work, and maybe allow for use of lighter weight oils. I dont know. However, im sure someday we will see more efficient power transfer through transmissions.
My point is, as far as the rolling friction goes, most race cars, minus the sticky rubber friction, have very little frictional drag. (ie wheel bearings).
The gains of modifications might be very costly and not buy you much. (not talking about alignment or gear oil viscosity Bryan
).
mk
My point is, as far as the rolling friction goes, most race cars, minus the sticky rubber friction, have very little frictional drag. (ie wheel bearings).
The gains of modifications might be very costly and not buy you much. (not talking about alignment or gear oil viscosity Bryan
).mk
we use to coat everything, the coatings we used we could not blow things up, people were running a qt of oil in the rear and trying to blow it up, we have done numerous 5 speed trannys. We have put bearings in dirt bikes and karts and could not blow them up. I just didnt know if the same would be true about road racing cars.
03-03-2009, 06:41 PM
#17
Rennlist Member
Based on the rolling friction values of wheel bearings, there wouldnt be much gain there, as the speeds are relatively slow. (at 100mph a rear axle is only spinning under 2000rpm. However, gears and bearings in the transmission would be worth the effort, but Im sure at a cost.
I was speaking to the rolling resistance which on most porsches is pretty darn low. Get into the transmissions and reduces that 15% loss to under 10% and you might have something.
my 6 yr old kid pushes my car in and out of the garage too, but he cant do it very quickly. ( little power or torque-force/distance/time
)
EDIT: Proof is in many of our wheel bearing life expectancy. Ive had some of the wheel bearings last over 7 full race seasons. until they blow, the spin like jewelry.
most of the life is not so much in the quality, as most are all pretty good . (ABEC 3-5) but in the loads they are exposed to, and the grease they are using. A bunch of other factors as well.
mk
I was speaking to the rolling resistance which on most porsches is pretty darn low. Get into the transmissions and reduces that 15% loss to under 10% and you might have something.
my 6 yr old kid pushes my car in and out of the garage too, but he cant do it very quickly. ( little power or torque-force/distance/time
)EDIT: Proof is in many of our wheel bearing life expectancy. Ive had some of the wheel bearings last over 7 full race seasons. until they blow, the spin like jewelry.
most of the life is not so much in the quality, as most are all pretty good . (ABEC 3-5) but in the loads they are exposed to, and the grease they are using. A bunch of other factors as well.
mk
the wheel bearings are not as expensive as you would think, are the ball or taper and well worth the coating. When i changed a lot of my stuff over to coating bearings, a little kid could have pushed my car it wanted to roll so much. Anything you coat is going to work better, less friction, release more power and last longer. These guys i mentioned above do a lot with Nascar, i am just new to road racing so i never thought about it till we starting discussing it over the weekend.
03-03-2009, 06:42 PM
#18
Drifting
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Phila.
Posts: 2,290
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
All this talk about anti friction coatings is great but no one mentioned toe settings and how they will affect rollling resistance and lap times, not to mention $$ on tires
03-03-2009, 06:44 PM
#20
Rennlist Member
I think bryan mentioned it. Its a big friction maker. Heck, it takes a lot of force to skin a tire over a race day!
mk
mk
03-03-2009, 06:46 PM
#21
Rennlist Member
Is there anything you aren't an expert in Mark? 
Some of us actually use data acquisition, believe it or not, and know whether things work or not. In a Formula Mazda, the difference between Redline Lightweight Shockproof and Redline Superlight Shockproof can be seen in data when doing controlled acceleration runs.
Looking to a place like Spec Miata with very limited legal modifications and lots of competition is where you see people getting really creative with limiting friction. Some of the guys I knew when I was running Spec Miata did a lot of work/testing around adjusting toe to find a balance between handling and straightaway speed. In such a low powered car, some folks err very much on the side of giving up handling to gain straightaway speed. It was very noticeable in the draft. If folks really are using 45 minute bearings in Spec Miata, I'm tempted to assume they've found an advantage to doing so.
A couple hp can be a big deal. Surely you of all people, Mr. Electric Supercharger, can attest to that?
Some of us actually use data acquisition, believe it or not, and know whether things work or not. In a Formula Mazda, the difference between Redline Lightweight Shockproof and Redline Superlight Shockproof can be seen in data when doing controlled acceleration runs.
Looking to a place like Spec Miata with very limited legal modifications and lots of competition is where you see people getting really creative with limiting friction. Some of the guys I knew when I was running Spec Miata did a lot of work/testing around adjusting toe to find a balance between handling and straightaway speed. In such a low powered car, some folks err very much on the side of giving up handling to gain straightaway speed. It was very noticeable in the draft. If folks really are using 45 minute bearings in Spec Miata, I'm tempted to assume they've found an advantage to doing so.
A couple hp can be a big deal. Surely you of all people, Mr. Electric Supercharger, can attest to that?
LMFAO.....
Professional Racing and Driving Coach
03-03-2009, 10:06 PM
#22
Racer
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 497
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
That is just totally wrong. A normal gearbox is about 98-99% efficient. It has to be, or the oil heating would be incredible.
Take a 300kW (400hp) engine. 15% percent of that power is 45 kW, or 45,000 watts. Install a 45,000 watt heater in your gearbox and see what happens.
I suspect that the difference in friction torque available by coating every moving part in the car is around .1 to 1 Nm. I don't think any data acquisition system is going to be able to see that under anything but laboratory conditions.
Mark correctly pointed out the tire drag is about 1000 times more than friction drag. Furthermore, the tire drag is so complicated that it cannot be tested or modeled outside of a laboratory.
A pumping loss is different from a frictional loss. Pumping losses are much larger and should be measurable down to a few hundred watts (.5hp or so)
Chris Cervelli
Spline Technologies
03-03-2009, 10:21 PM
#23
Race Director
Friend of mine builds all the Kawasaki AMA road racing bikes and those things are full of neat tricks and they use special bearings of various tollerances and ceramic bearings in the engines and the wheel bearings. Also the brake are so precise that the pads do not rub the rotors what so ever.
