??Thunderhill....most important corner??
02-06-2009, 06:52 PM
#31
Race Car
Even on my (barely) sub-2:00 laps, I don't get more than 125 on the straight. Even with that 'low' an entry speed, I'd say flat through 1 is crazy. I'd lose a windshield every lap.
Maybe Miatas do that.
Kibort's "Attention *****" sign should say "Sand Bagger," I think. No one put any money up against him on sub-2:00 laps next time out. He's done made some changes.
Maybe Miatas do that.
Kibort's "Attention *****" sign should say "Sand Bagger," I think. No one put any money up against him on sub-2:00 laps next time out. He's done made some changes.
02-06-2009, 09:06 PM
#32
Rennlist Member
Even Miatas have to slow down for 1.
I HAVE gone flat from the exit of 5 to the entry of 9 a couple of times. Brand new tires, though, and otherwise optimal conditions. Likely NOT getting a good jump off the hill at 5 helped.
But look at what all we're bringing to the table in this discussion--911's from not so stock to complete racers of various chassis generations to the latest high HP modified street weight ones. Add in 928's, my sports racer...........discussion can go on and on.
Mike, as you mention the 951, is that car being advertised on Craigslist now?
And back to Mark and hugging the inside of 2. Learned that 10+ years ago from Craig Watkins when he went smoking past me one lap. Light bulb!
I HAVE gone flat from the exit of 5 to the entry of 9 a couple of times. Brand new tires, though, and otherwise optimal conditions. Likely NOT getting a good jump off the hill at 5 helped.
But look at what all we're bringing to the table in this discussion--911's from not so stock to complete racers of various chassis generations to the latest high HP modified street weight ones. Add in 928's, my sports racer...........discussion can go on and on.
Mike, as you mention the 951, is that car being advertised on Craigslist now?
And back to Mark and hugging the inside of 2. Learned that 10+ years ago from Craig Watkins when he went smoking past me one lap. Light bulb!
02-06-2009, 09:25 PM
#33
GT3 player par excellence
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Even Miatas have to slow down for 1.
I HAVE gone flat from the exit of 5 to the entry of 9 a couple of times. Brand new tires, though, and otherwise optimal conditions. Likely NOT getting a good jump off the hill at 5 helped.
But look at what all we're bringing to the table in this discussion--911's from not so stock to complete racers of various chassis generations to the latest high HP modified street weight ones. Add in 928's, my sports racer...........discussion can go on and on.
Mike, as you mention the 951, is that car being advertised on Craigslist now?
And back to Mark and hugging the inside of 2. Learned that 10+ years ago from Craig Watkins when he went smoking past me one lap. Light bulb!
I HAVE gone flat from the exit of 5 to the entry of 9 a couple of times. Brand new tires, though, and otherwise optimal conditions. Likely NOT getting a good jump off the hill at 5 helped.
But look at what all we're bringing to the table in this discussion--911's from not so stock to complete racers of various chassis generations to the latest high HP modified street weight ones. Add in 928's, my sports racer...........discussion can go on and on.
Mike, as you mention the 951, is that car being advertised on Craigslist now?
And back to Mark and hugging the inside of 2. Learned that 10+ years ago from Craig Watkins when he went smoking past me one lap. Light bulb!
so, i should hug inside of T2 even in 911's? i have been taught both ways. but i am not consistent enough to say which way is faster.
02-06-2009, 09:30 PM
#34
Rennlist Member
I can ask Justin, but my (likely faulty) memory was that there was a slight lift or maybe a left foot brake to settle the car. Could have it ALL wrong, as I am all wrong with the SM.
I take the short way around 2 if I've got a car that works it. The street RSA? No way. The yellow car, or RSA #1, absolutely.
I take the short way around 2 if I've got a car that works it. The street RSA? No way. The yellow car, or RSA #1, absolutely.
02-06-2009, 09:36 PM
#35
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996gt3, r888, 2:01:6....
two full seconds slower....
i am retiring.
02-06-2009, 10:06 PM
#36
Three Wheelin'
So imagine how ridiculous it sounded to me when some guy tells a group of nice people in the classroom at Thill that they should be able to go through turn 1 flat. It so happened that I had one of the fastest (that is most capable) race cars at that event, I and I just gently said.... "well that's not entirely accurate." Then the guy tries to argue with me. Then he said the same thing about turn 8. True students of the game know this is crazy. In my opinion, anyone that carries the label "instructor" should know better. In that experience in the classroom last year, I thought it was really telling that the folks all approached me "offline," to ask me what they really should do.
Can "Bob" run turn 1 or 8 flat? Can Mat?
I remember more than 10 years ago at Laguna hearing a group instructor tell all of the students that all the turns between 2 and the corkscrew were 90 degrees. Sure enough, in the very next session a poor fella came across the track in turn 3 and hit the inside wall. Shamefull (that turn is an acute angle).
Going back to Thill... I remember when Hurley joined the PCA event years back when the track was still pretty new to us. He drove a bunch of different cars... including a friend's RSA and another friend's 914. He pretty much declared the proper line through 2 as right in the middle of the track. That's Haywood at a PCA event.
The fastest way through turn 2, everything else being equal... is the way that yields the highest rpm at a select point at exit... for a given car.... on a given day. The geometry of the turn (if the car is a perfect object) suggests single late apex. That yields the widest geometric arc, which provides an opportunity for the maximum cornering speed. To get on here and tell a complete stranger otherwise is perhaps inappropriate.
TW: I have said it before... if you can get within 1-2 seconds of Rich... you are already pretty damn fast. If I had your resources (like Motec and time to test) I might hire someone like Marshall Pruett for a coaching experience or two.
- Mike
jealous of those that ran the HOD event last weekend... the weather must have been great even if the track was likely a li'l green...
Can "Bob" run turn 1 or 8 flat? Can Mat?
I remember more than 10 years ago at Laguna hearing a group instructor tell all of the students that all the turns between 2 and the corkscrew were 90 degrees. Sure enough, in the very next session a poor fella came across the track in turn 3 and hit the inside wall. Shamefull (that turn is an acute angle).
Going back to Thill... I remember when Hurley joined the PCA event years back when the track was still pretty new to us. He drove a bunch of different cars... including a friend's RSA and another friend's 914. He pretty much declared the proper line through 2 as right in the middle of the track. That's Haywood at a PCA event.
The fastest way through turn 2, everything else being equal... is the way that yields the highest rpm at a select point at exit... for a given car.... on a given day. The geometry of the turn (if the car is a perfect object) suggests single late apex. That yields the widest geometric arc, which provides an opportunity for the maximum cornering speed. To get on here and tell a complete stranger otherwise is perhaps inappropriate.
TW: I have said it before... if you can get within 1-2 seconds of Rich... you are already pretty damn fast. If I had your resources (like Motec and time to test) I might hire someone like Marshall Pruett for a coaching experience or two.
- Mike
jealous of those that ran the HOD event last weekend... the weather must have been great even if the track was likely a li'l green...
02-06-2009, 10:06 PM
#37
Three Wheelin'
So imagine how ridiculous it sounded to me when some guy tells a group of nice people in the classroom at Thill that they should be able to go through turn 1 flat. It so happened that I had one of the fastest (that is most capable) race cars at that event, I and I just gently said.... "well that's not entirely accurate." Then the guy tries to argue with me. Then he said the same thing about turn 8. True students of the game know this is crazy. In my opinion, anyone that carries the label "instructor" should know better. In that experience in the classroom last year, I thought it was really telling that the folks all approached me "offline," to ask me what they really should do.
Can "Bob" run turn 1 or 8 flat? Can Mat?
I remember more than 10 years ago at Laguna hearing a group instructor tell all of the students that all the turns between 2 and the corkscrew were 90 degrees. Sure enough, in the very next session a poor fella came across the track in turn 3 and hit the inside wall. Shamefull (that turn is an acute angle).
Going back to Thill... I remember when Hurley joined the PCA event years back when the track was still pretty new to us. He drove a bunch of different cars... including a friend's RSA and another friend's 914. He pretty much declared the proper line through 2 as right in the middle of the track. That's Haywood at a PCA event.
The fastest way through turn 2, everything else being equal... is the way that yields the highest rpm at a select point at exit... for a given car.... on a given day. The geometry of the turn (if the car is a perfect object) suggests single late apex. That yields the widest geometric arc, which provides an opportunity for the maximum cornering speed. To get on here and tell a complete stranger otherwise is perhaps inappropriate.
TW: I have said it before... if you can get within 1-2 seconds of Rich... you are already pretty damn fast. If I had your resources (like Motec and time to test) I might hire someone like Marshall Pruett for a coaching experience or two.
- Mike
jealous of those that ran the HOD event last weekend... the weather must have been great even if the track was likely a li'l green...
Can "Bob" run turn 1 or 8 flat? Can Mat?
I remember more than 10 years ago at Laguna hearing a group instructor tell all of the students that all the turns between 2 and the corkscrew were 90 degrees. Sure enough, in the very next session a poor fella came across the track in turn 3 and hit the inside wall. Shamefull (that turn is an acute angle).
Going back to Thill... I remember when Hurley joined the PCA event years back when the track was still pretty new to us. He drove a bunch of different cars... including a friend's RSA and another friend's 914. He pretty much declared the proper line through 2 as right in the middle of the track. That's Haywood at a PCA event.
The fastest way through turn 2, everything else being equal... is the way that yields the highest rpm at a select point at exit... for a given car.... on a given day. The geometry of the turn (if the car is a perfect object) suggests single late apex. That yields the widest geometric arc, which provides an opportunity for the maximum cornering speed. To get on here and tell a complete stranger otherwise is perhaps inappropriate.
TW: I have said it before... if you can get within 1-2 seconds of Rich... you are already pretty damn fast. If I had your resources (like Motec and time to test) I might hire someone like Marshall Pruett for a coaching experience or two.
- Mike
jealous of those that ran the HOD event last weekend... the weather must have been great even if the track was likely a li'l green...
02-06-2009, 10:19 PM
#38
Three Wheelin'
Don't know why that posted twice...
To tell someone that they should be flat from the turn in to 6 through the apex is inappropriate in my opinion. No way in my car. To show them the line and encourage them to work toward achieving maximum exit speed, especially where you have an exit that allows a safe peek at the tacho... now that may provide greater benefits.
With my number one student, we used video data acq. a lot back in the day. We looked at the red light that comes on with brakes, and the tacho and full throttle light. Very crude data acq..... but effective.
To tell someone that they should be flat from the turn in to 6 through the apex is inappropriate in my opinion. No way in my car. To show them the line and encourage them to work toward achieving maximum exit speed, especially where you have an exit that allows a safe peek at the tacho... now that may provide greater benefits.
With my number one student, we used video data acq. a lot back in the day. We looked at the red light that comes on with brakes, and the tacho and full throttle light. Very crude data acq..... but effective.
02-06-2009, 10:23 PM
#39
Rennlist Member
So imagine how ridiculous it sounded to me when some guy tells a group of nice people in the classroom at Thill that they should be able to go through turn 1 flat. It so happened that I had one of the fastest (that is most capable) race cars at that event, I and I just gently said.... "well that's not entirely accurate." Then the guy tries to argue with me. Then he said the same thing about turn 8. True students of the game know this is crazy. In my opinion, anyone that carries the label "instructor" should know better. In that experience in the classroom last year, I thought it was really telling that the folks all approached me "offline," to ask me what they really should do.
Can "Bob" run turn 1 or 8 flat? Can Mat?
I remember more than 10 years ago at Laguna hearing a group instructor tell all of the students that all the turns between 2 and the corkscrew were 90 degrees. Sure enough, in the very next session a poor fella came across the track in turn 3 and hit the inside wall. Shamefull (that turn is an acute angle).
Going back to Thill... I remember when Hurley joined the PCA event years back when the track was still pretty new to us. He drove a bunch of different cars... including a friend's RSA and another friend's 914. He pretty much declared the proper line through 2 as right in the middle of the track. That's Haywood at a PCA event.
The fastest way through turn 2, everything else being equal... is the way that yields the highest rpm at a select point at exit... for a given car.... on a given day. The geometry of the turn (if the car is a perfect object) suggests single late apex. That yields the widest geometric arc, which provides an opportunity for the maximum cornering speed. To get on here and tell a complete stranger otherwise is perhaps inappropriate.
TW: I have said it before... if you can get within 1-2 seconds of Rich... you are already pretty damn fast. If I had your resources (like Motec and time to test) I might hire someone like Marshall Pruett for a coaching experience or two.
- Mike
jealous of those that ran the HOD event last weekend... the weather must have been great even if the track was likely a li'l green...
Can "Bob" run turn 1 or 8 flat? Can Mat?
I remember more than 10 years ago at Laguna hearing a group instructor tell all of the students that all the turns between 2 and the corkscrew were 90 degrees. Sure enough, in the very next session a poor fella came across the track in turn 3 and hit the inside wall. Shamefull (that turn is an acute angle).
Going back to Thill... I remember when Hurley joined the PCA event years back when the track was still pretty new to us. He drove a bunch of different cars... including a friend's RSA and another friend's 914. He pretty much declared the proper line through 2 as right in the middle of the track. That's Haywood at a PCA event.
The fastest way through turn 2, everything else being equal... is the way that yields the highest rpm at a select point at exit... for a given car.... on a given day. The geometry of the turn (if the car is a perfect object) suggests single late apex. That yields the widest geometric arc, which provides an opportunity for the maximum cornering speed. To get on here and tell a complete stranger otherwise is perhaps inappropriate.
TW: I have said it before... if you can get within 1-2 seconds of Rich... you are already pretty damn fast. If I had your resources (like Motec and time to test) I might hire someone like Marshall Pruett for a coaching experience or two.
- Mike
jealous of those that ran the HOD event last weekend... the weather must have been great even if the track was likely a li'l green...
I mentioned coming to Thunderhill to Hurley on the grid at Daytona for the 24, and he claimed to have remembered!. Could have been humoring me, or he really DID............because why else would he have ever come back.
Now as far as his line through 2, that was in 1998 and in the track's fifth year of operation. We had plenty of laps there. If the RSA you're referring to was Jeff Skyes', then my RSA #2 is better set up than that car. And no way do I run inside. Just can't, unless you want to go slow. If you're referring to Tim Gallen's, that car had non-revalved 964 RSR shocks which made the car nearly undrivable. That a couple of years later I could take my near-stock RSA #1 and run fully FIVE seconds faster than him (or two faster than Ken Masuda) spoke great volumes about the proper spring/shock package Dave Taylor set me up with.
Ultimately, as Watkins has been Van Overbeck's engineer on the Lizards forever, I rate all the input he selflessly gave me in the late '90's as first rate.
02-06-2009, 10:49 PM
#40
Three Wheelin'
Not Jeff's.. not Tim's.... 'twas Bill Lusk's car.
Hope all is well with you and Karen, Ken!
- MM
Hope all is well with you and Karen, Ken!
- MM
02-07-2009, 12:36 AM
#41
Three Wheelin'
Iceman/Brian...
i just watched your video. You look like you are having fun.
In some of the corners, it looks like you are using the cones as apex markers... and they appear to be placed in late/safer positions. As you advance in your skills and experience, I suggest taking care with this.
I'd disregard others comments regarding turns 2 and 6. You appear to be driving well enough and to be knowledgeable enough to be focused on finding your car's best approach to these puzzle pieces. In both cases, exit rpm's at a given point will tell you a lot. Even with the variable ways to work turn 2, what's right for your car cannot be suggested from here. Things to try can be suggested, but what's right...
Some additional comments:
Turn 1 faster.
Not sure what you mean by this. It appears to me that you are taking a somewhat later-than-necessary apex. This is obviously a turn to approach with caution...
Turn 2 a little faster
Not sure what you mean by this. What I teach in that corner for people climbing the curve is to really focus on feeling the tires that are doing the work (right side tires... I mutter...."feel it... feel it" to my students), and trying to gain a tactile impression of how much more, if any, they'll take. As you work this, of course be mindful of adjustments you'll have to make entering 3.
turn 6 flat by apex
Not sure what you mean by this. The goal is always to maximize exit speed.
Turn 7 flat (it was maybe 3/4ths).
Now here, the path from 6 exit to 8 entry is effectively a straight (unless you are offline). I have seen a few students (and even experienced racing drivers) get lazy about the 7 apex. But if you are driving a proper straight line, there is no reason to not be 100%. By definition. Less than 100% based on a feeling you have in the car (assuming you are online and hit the apex) seems to me to potentially portend a problem with the car. Less than 100% in this situation, (if the car is okay) is kind of like coasting. Race car drivers rarely coast when the car is going in a straight line.
Turn 8 is slow
Not sure what you mean by this. Not using 100% of car's capability? How do you know? And I disagree with anyone telling you on the internet that you can be flat or just lift in 8.... unless they have exactly the same car as you. Are you driving a highly speced formula ford? No.
Turn 9 is slow
Not sure what you mean by this. Once I have an intermediate student that kind of "gets" turn 9, I work with them on the concept of attacking the corner. That is getting more aggressive in a comfortable manner. That seems to translate well into maxing exit speed through earliest and max possible throttle application, and trying to reduce the slowing to its minimum. I never say "brake less," or "brake later," I sometimes say "lose less speed," as it seems to be more comfortable.
Turn 10
I like to work with advancing students on exit speed and again, the concept of attacking that corner. It helps if I ask them about sports they participate(d) in or some other hobby (even music), so we can work an analogy. This has been a very effective approach for me. As you work this, of course be mindful of adjustments you'll have to make entering 11. When I ride and a student does this naturally, I say.... "nice adjustment."
11-12-13 are very slow from traffic (my guess is 3-4 seconds there alone)
Cannot say. I have seen two really bad wrecks there... not to be taken for granted. In one of them, a "highly decorated," "how to drive a race car," author was sitting shotgun. In the other, the person in the world with the most laps at Thunderhill wound up in the hospital. What's the goal? Maximum exit speed. I like to work toward that goal.
14 -15 seem okay..maybe early full throttle on 15
Most important. Pretty easy to work toward max exit speed.
i just watched your video. You look like you are having fun.
In some of the corners, it looks like you are using the cones as apex markers... and they appear to be placed in late/safer positions. As you advance in your skills and experience, I suggest taking care with this.
I'd disregard others comments regarding turns 2 and 6. You appear to be driving well enough and to be knowledgeable enough to be focused on finding your car's best approach to these puzzle pieces. In both cases, exit rpm's at a given point will tell you a lot. Even with the variable ways to work turn 2, what's right for your car cannot be suggested from here. Things to try can be suggested, but what's right...
Some additional comments:
Turn 1 faster.
Not sure what you mean by this. It appears to me that you are taking a somewhat later-than-necessary apex. This is obviously a turn to approach with caution...
Turn 2 a little faster
Not sure what you mean by this. What I teach in that corner for people climbing the curve is to really focus on feeling the tires that are doing the work (right side tires... I mutter...."feel it... feel it" to my students), and trying to gain a tactile impression of how much more, if any, they'll take. As you work this, of course be mindful of adjustments you'll have to make entering 3.
turn 6 flat by apex
Not sure what you mean by this. The goal is always to maximize exit speed.
Turn 7 flat (it was maybe 3/4ths).
Now here, the path from 6 exit to 8 entry is effectively a straight (unless you are offline). I have seen a few students (and even experienced racing drivers) get lazy about the 7 apex. But if you are driving a proper straight line, there is no reason to not be 100%. By definition. Less than 100% based on a feeling you have in the car (assuming you are online and hit the apex) seems to me to potentially portend a problem with the car. Less than 100% in this situation, (if the car is okay) is kind of like coasting. Race car drivers rarely coast when the car is going in a straight line.
Turn 8 is slow
Not sure what you mean by this. Not using 100% of car's capability? How do you know? And I disagree with anyone telling you on the internet that you can be flat or just lift in 8.... unless they have exactly the same car as you. Are you driving a highly speced formula ford? No.
Turn 9 is slow
Not sure what you mean by this. Once I have an intermediate student that kind of "gets" turn 9, I work with them on the concept of attacking the corner. That is getting more aggressive in a comfortable manner. That seems to translate well into maxing exit speed through earliest and max possible throttle application, and trying to reduce the slowing to its minimum. I never say "brake less," or "brake later," I sometimes say "lose less speed," as it seems to be more comfortable.
Turn 10
I like to work with advancing students on exit speed and again, the concept of attacking that corner. It helps if I ask them about sports they participate(d) in or some other hobby (even music), so we can work an analogy. This has been a very effective approach for me. As you work this, of course be mindful of adjustments you'll have to make entering 11. When I ride and a student does this naturally, I say.... "nice adjustment."
11-12-13 are very slow from traffic (my guess is 3-4 seconds there alone)
Cannot say. I have seen two really bad wrecks there... not to be taken for granted. In one of them, a "highly decorated," "how to drive a race car," author was sitting shotgun. In the other, the person in the world with the most laps at Thunderhill wound up in the hospital. What's the goal? Maximum exit speed. I like to work toward that goal.
14 -15 seem okay..maybe early full throttle on 15
Most important. Pretty easy to work toward max exit speed.
02-07-2009, 01:35 AM
#42
Addict
Rennlist Member
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For fun ... a comparison of Rich vs Tom driving the Turtle on the same day an hour or so apart.
For the track map, Rich is the inside and I'm the outside. The green in a gradient showing throttle position - dark green is WOT. The white bits are a lift to shift or before braking. The red is braking with the force indicated by color - darker is harder.
The time/distance plot shows the same laps as the map but graphically. Orange is Rich's speed and black is mine. Throttle possitions are green (Rich) and black (Tom). In this comparison, I'm a tad faster than him through T1 - 5. He's doing better in 6 and I do a bit better in 8. I blow 11 and am too slow and that's the difference in lap time. (A "variance" plot is at the top showing the difference in time in seconds. Rich's lap was a 1:56.76 and mine a 1:58.05. It doesn't show what the most important turns are but it shows how one poorly executed turn can have a big impact on time.
It's pretty easy to see how we throttle steer in 2 to overcome some understeer and Rich's lack of comfort with the car as he brakes in 8 (not that I would ever kid him about it ).
For the track map, Rich is the inside and I'm the outside. The green in a gradient showing throttle position - dark green is WOT. The white bits are a lift to shift or before braking. The red is braking with the force indicated by color - darker is harder.
The time/distance plot shows the same laps as the map but graphically. Orange is Rich's speed and black is mine. Throttle possitions are green (Rich) and black (Tom). In this comparison, I'm a tad faster than him through T1 - 5. He's doing better in 6 and I do a bit better in 8. I blow 11 and am too slow and that's the difference in lap time. (A "variance" plot is at the top showing the difference in time in seconds. Rich's lap was a 1:56.76 and mine a 1:58.05. It doesn't show what the most important turns are but it shows how one poorly executed turn can have a big impact on time.
It's pretty easy to see how we throttle steer in 2 to overcome some understeer and Rich's lack of comfort with the car as he brakes in 8 (not that I would ever kid him about it
).
02-07-2009, 03:21 AM
#44
Race Director
Thread Starter
I just went to HOD event where i was lucky enough to get coaching from johannes van overbeek and rich walton.
their 2 main msges - carry more speed into most corners and don't be so hard on brakes into t6 (brake earlier and lighter and plant throttle earlier).
yes even overweight pig cars like ours can fly into corners. so as a result i starting carrying more speed into t2, t3, t10, t11 and even t5. your car can take it trust me.
i didn't beat my best time but did get my best on these particular tires.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZEgR3C-N4g
their 2 main msges - carry more speed into most corners and don't be so hard on brakes into t6 (brake earlier and lighter and plant throttle earlier).
yes even overweight pig cars like ours can fly into corners. so as a result i starting carrying more speed into t2, t3, t10, t11 and even t5. your car can take it trust me.
i didn't beat my best time but did get my best on these particular tires.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZEgR3C-N4g
02-07-2009, 11:31 AM
#45
Rennlist Member