C.J. Ichiban

oh yeah the ones at the 3 day school aren't really that great- but if you're familiar with Formula cars...67k goes a REALLY long way.

such as an indy car that finished the 500 in 2nd place...
http://www.race-cars.com/carsales/ma...33396137ss.htm

or
http://www.race-cars.com/carsales/lo...47269377ss.htm

or
http://www.race-cars.com/carsold/formulamazda.htm


seriously they'd have to pry 67k from my cold dead hands!

chrisp

they don't cost $67k (know for a fact) but Skippy can charge whatever they want right? Logic is that the higher the prices the less risky a driver will be. 1-2 wrecked cars a weekend isn't a big deal but when there are more than that it really turns their world upside down. So they try to keep everyone in line.

jakermc

Umm, I would not call that a freak accident. Warm-up lap, cold tires, and rain were all known conditions, correct? This is driver error. Its our job behind the wheel to adjust to our conditions. This includes the conditions off the track, knowing there was mud also means the cost of going off goes up. Drive accordingly.

ervtx

Chrisp, I never said that the cars cost 67.5, only that 67.5 was the "fully burdened cost" as applied to liability calculations. Straight from the rule book, so that's a fact/reality if you want to run w SB.

Also, since the cap on that liability is derived from a formula, and progresses from 5500 to 11500, all the way up to 67500, there is already in place a mechanism to penalize risky drivers. The full 67500 is NOT universally applicable across all drivers in order to keep everyone in line. More to the point, liability is not a equally shared burden to cover actuarial estimates of weekly damage. Their system makes it less costly to participate for safe drivers. Wish I could get as much graduated rates for regular auto insurance!


+1, jackermc. As the LSRPCA guys reiterate at every driver meeting "an accident is when a boulder falls out of the sky and hits your car".


BTW I'm headed out to Laguna Seca in about an hour for some SB instructor lead/follow followed by open lapping. Whooohoooo!

vmb

I agree 100%. And maybe I shouldn't have put that winky in. It really wasn't me. And we did give my friend a very hard time about it for a long time.

ervtx

+1
I had two 30 minute sessions with Mikel. Loved his calm "you can do it" style. It was also great to just witness his "presence" on the track. He's driving his mirrors as he leads me around the track; sees EVERY thing I'm doing behind him, and is constantly on the vox button giving non-stop feedback. I'm pushing as hard as I can, right? Exhaling hard in the braking zones and taking every straight as an opportunity to catch my breath... intense focus just to get the car pointed in the right direction at the apex (the slip angle these cars can achieve are way more than what I can do in the C4). Bottom line I'm driving 10/10 and while he's apparently looking at me instead of the track ahead, he rather nonchalantly flicks a knocked over cone out of the way with his left rear tire. He's saying "awesome dude", and all I can reply is "right, nice punt".

During open lapping later in the day I had a nice encounter with the tire wall heading down to T5. I had tracked out of T4 on the curbing, gone to full throttle, and was already looking down towards the T5 turn in. Apparently I was just far enough to the edge of the curbing that the left rear slid off where the curbing ends and I dropped it into the dirt. I started a slow 180 pirouette down the middle of the track, drifting towards the right-hand tire wall at what? maybe 60mph?. Hit it almost completely flat against the left hand side of the car, but not enough to stop the wing from getting torn off. Didn't seem that hard of a hit, but the guys in back of me said it was a pretty mean impact, sending a compression ripple down the length of the tire wall. I was able to drive the car back in to the pits, however. The pit coordinator asked if I wanted to finish the session in a new car, I said yes! That was the smartest thing I could have done. I got back out and for another 15 minutes and finished with some confidence restored. In my last session with Mikel immediately afterwards, he said that having done that was obviously a good thing because it showed in my strong finish for the day.

In retrospect, dropping the tire at T4 track out was probably caused by me not adjusting my vision to account for the single seater, center-of-car point of view when all of my other track time is in a left-hand drive passenger car. In my C4, a track out on the driver's side is "right there". But in a single seater, it's not. It's more like, right UNDER there. A few inches of error in perception when you think you're on the very edge of the curbing translates into going off! Good learning experience.

BTW, C.J. he said to tell you hi.

C.J. Ichiban

haha yeah dude! to be honest- if you're not spinning out here and there you will never learn your limits. funny thing happens when you hit a tire wall...you realize that it's no big deal- but you're better off in a race car!

Doc V.

One of a racer's primary obligations is to retain control of his or her car at all times. I do not agree that spinning--that losing control of one's car--is necessary to learn the limits of the car.

"One of the biggest fables in [motorsports]," Carl Lopez writes in Going Faster, "is that you have to spin to know where the limit is. By approaching the limits of the car's capabilities cautiously, you will get plenty of warning that it is nearing a spin."

____________
PCA National Instructor
GVC-BMW CCA Instructor
Trackmasters Instructor

ervtx

I hear what you're saying, but in my case, my error was committed nowhere near the limit of the car's capabilities! Besides that, I'm not fast enough to have been at the limit of traction even if I had stayed inside the curbing. I simply mis-judged the placement of the car relative to the curbing. I thought I had a tire-width on the inside of the curbing, but in reality I had put part of the tire outside of the edge of the curbing. When I reached the end of the curbing, I thought I would be 100% on the asphalt, but instead, I dropped a wheel into the dirt. The spin was instantaneous.

C.J. Ichiban

well Doc I guess it's all a matter of perspective. sometimes people don't have time to inch up to limits and take larger calculated risks along the way (qualifying, for instance). also, occasionally the less schumacher-DNA'd of us make a mistake here or there. bottom line is that if you're on a race track- and really going for it- some times you put wheels wrong...

ervtx

the funny thing is... there were a few "oh **** oh **** oh **** oh ****" moments that day where I didn't go off, and actually nailed the given turn quite well. But that one was just so sublime, I had my eyes on the bridge ahead and was mentally "done" with T4, and then the world starting going around and gravel was flying everywhere and I thought wtf???"

Doc V.

You've altered your perspective on spinning, C. J.

You first claimed that a driver has to spin in order to learn the limits of his or her car: "if you're not spinning out here and there you will never learn your limits," you asserted. In other words, spinning is a necessary condition if one is to understand his or her limits in a car. (Your reference to toying with tire barriers is suspect as well, incidentally.)

Now you've introduced the notions of (i) taking "larger calculated risks along the way (qualifying, for instance)," and (ii) driver error--of making "mistake[s] here or there." (i) has nothing to do with learning one's limits as a driver by inducing a spin, and (ii) emphasizes a driver's error in judgment and not a driver's attempt to understand his or her limits. I doubt that you would contend that a driver deliberately tries to make mistakes--to push a car beyond its limits and to induce a spin--while he or she is on the track. After all, a car is ideally driven at its limits on the track; the place to push a car intentionally beyond its limits in the attempt to learn its and a driver's limits is a car control clinic (the Skip Barber Racing School offers an excellent Advanced Car Control Clinic). And as a skilled driver, C. J., you know that there is a specific, effective strategy to control a car before it spins--before it rotates more than 90 degrees. Consider the driver who is exploring conscientiously the limits of his or her car. He or she makes an error in judgment which causes the car to rotate more than he or she desires; that driver then has the obligation to react quickly to the over-rotation (quick reaction slows the over-rotation) and to regain control of the car.

We all make mistakes behind the wheel, C. J., yet we all have the obligation to retain control of our vehicles at all times and to recognize and correct our driving errors quickly and effectively before those errors create hazards for ourselves and for others.

ervtx

Doc V. thanks for your clarity and wisdom; I find nothing in your comments that I could disagree with.

That said, I took C.J.'s comments in the spirit in which they were intended. We are somewhat acquainted with each other, and I have given him my share of point-by's on the track. So when he wrote
I knew that he was really just encouraging me to drive with confidence, and explore my own limits vs. stay in my comfort zone and learn nothing. Your points are well made for the general audience here, but for what it's worth, this rookie isn't so clueless as to take C.J.'s words at face value or think that deliberately taking the car over the limit of adhesion on the track is an acceptable learning method. Even my sig implies that I feel that my skill as a driver is the lower hanging fruit.

I especially appreciate your comments on the car control clinic and recovery strategy. A PCA instructor that has ridden with me several times has encouraged me with various ways in which to explore that locally (now just waiting for some snow!). And despite my encounter with the tire wall at Laguna, I did receive positive comments during the day regarding the corrections I had made...
So... I got both yours and C.J's points, and appreciate them both!

C.J. Ichiban

doc, I understand your point and I am not disagreeing. everyone spins along the way to getting to their best point of control in the car- or maybe I should take everyone else out of it...skidpad drills and car control clinics are fantastic for learning corrective reflexes and smoothing out jerky inputs...

I spun a few times, learned how to correct and prevent spins, and went faster as a result. I've never gone out and said "well **** lets go spin off track in Txx on purpose"- but when learning, the "limit" is a fluid place- generally guys get faster and faster especially when they've not been at it for 2 decades. and sometimes as a result of that increased speed, you make a mistake and have less window for correcting it.

me and ERVtx are track buddies, like he said. he was unharmed, no other drivers were involved, and he learned lots of valuable lessons from it. I guess trying to defend those of us who actually make mistakes here and there is frowned upon, I personally will continue to drive as fast as I can go because I have goals and am realistically behind schedule.

yes I have hit tires as a result of driving over the limit- but to be honest I don't really care- you write a check and fix the car and go back out. I've had completely unpredictable mechanical failures that have put me off track as well. if you go often enough, something will go wrong eventually either due to someone tapping you off (been there) or making a mistake on the limit (been there)

obviously with experience, you get better at avoiding things before they happen- just like evil women, opposing cars can be kept at a safe distance.

if you want to be safe and do DE stuff, mine is not the correct approach. but- if you're really racing then you have to be willing or at least aware that the car might not come back in one piece. that is part of the deal and too many people wreck their cars on the track or the streets to stick my head in the sand and think that it will never happen to me, again.

ervtx

Too bad there's no classroom instruction for that!