defNder, new H&N
12-11-2008, 03:44 PM
#46
Nordschleife Master
12-11-2008, 03:48 PM
#47
Nordschleife Master
As Gregg pointed out, the issue is keeping the HANS under the belts in anything other than a straight on impact (belt dump/stretch issues aside and assuming proper initial geometry)
H&D have worked this issue on multiple (I lost count) occasions, wings, no wings, bigger wings, friction material, no friction material, 3" shoulder belts, 3-2" HANS specific shoulder belts (which ironically they said were not necessary...not a surprising statement), and finally the dual shoulder belt system.
They are up against Sir Isaac and they're not going to win.
Again, not trying to start a H&N restraint jihad, I own a HANS, Isaac and a Leatt (son's); just as an engineer the issue H&D are dancing around is quite obvious.
But, any discussion regarding H&N restraints, SFI38.1, etc is good for everyone. A few years back, there was none.
H&D have worked this issue on multiple (I lost count) occasions, wings, no wings, bigger wings, friction material, no friction material, 3" shoulder belts, 3-2" HANS specific shoulder belts (which ironically they said were not necessary...not a surprising statement), and finally the dual shoulder belt system.
They are up against Sir Isaac and they're not going to win.
Again, not trying to start a H&N restraint jihad, I own a HANS, Isaac and a Leatt (son's); just as an engineer the issue H&D are dancing around is quite obvious.
But, any discussion regarding H&N restraints, SFI38.1, etc is good for everyone. A few years back, there was none.
Are there instances you can point me to?
I agree, the discussion is healthy as long as it isn't biased or have personal agendas interjected.
12-11-2008, 03:49 PM
#48
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PRESS RELEASE
HANS Files Patent Infringement Suit
Last update: 6:58 p.m. EST Dec. 10, 2008
ATLANTA, Dec 10, 2008 /PRNewswire via COMTEX/ -- HANS Performance Products "HANS", manufacturers of the multiple award winning HANS Device, has filed a patent infringement suit in the District Court for the Southern District of California against Innovative Safety Technology, LLC.
In the suit, HANS alleges that the defendant's defNder G70 product infringes U.S. Patent No. 6,009,566. HANS is seeking damages, injunctive and other relief.
"We and our licensees have invested significantly in the invention, innovation and continued development of proprietary head and neck restraint technologies," said Mark Stiles, Chief Executive Officer of HANS Performance Products. "When others make use of our patented technology, we will always take aggressive action to protect our investment, including the enforcement of our legal rights."
The HANS Device is a safety product worn by racecar drivers to help protect against life threatening basilar skull injuries of the type that are acknowledged to have killed stock car racing legend Dale Earnhardt in 2001. With more than 65,000 users, the industry leading HANS Device is the most tried, tested and trusted head and neck restraint worldwide. The uniqueness of its intellectual property and the company's leading contribution to motorsports safety was most recently recognized by the presentation of the Society of Automotive Engineer's 2008 Motorsports Engineering Award.
HANS is represented by the law firm Ballard Spahr Andrews & Ingersoll, LLP.
The HANS Device is the #1 choice for performance, #1 for vision and #1 for winners.
Details and information about HANS Performance Products are available at www.hansdevice.com or by calling 1-888-HANS-999 or 770-457-1046.
HANS, the Safetyform shape and their derivative styles are trademarks of HANS Performance Products
SOURCE HANS Performance Products
HANS Files Patent Infringement Suit
Last update: 6:58 p.m. EST Dec. 10, 2008
ATLANTA, Dec 10, 2008 /PRNewswire via COMTEX/ -- HANS Performance Products "HANS", manufacturers of the multiple award winning HANS Device, has filed a patent infringement suit in the District Court for the Southern District of California against Innovative Safety Technology, LLC.
In the suit, HANS alleges that the defendant's defNder G70 product infringes U.S. Patent No. 6,009,566. HANS is seeking damages, injunctive and other relief.
"We and our licensees have invested significantly in the invention, innovation and continued development of proprietary head and neck restraint technologies," said Mark Stiles, Chief Executive Officer of HANS Performance Products. "When others make use of our patented technology, we will always take aggressive action to protect our investment, including the enforcement of our legal rights."
The HANS Device is a safety product worn by racecar drivers to help protect against life threatening basilar skull injuries of the type that are acknowledged to have killed stock car racing legend Dale Earnhardt in 2001. With more than 65,000 users, the industry leading HANS Device is the most tried, tested and trusted head and neck restraint worldwide. The uniqueness of its intellectual property and the company's leading contribution to motorsports safety was most recently recognized by the presentation of the Society of Automotive Engineer's 2008 Motorsports Engineering Award.
HANS is represented by the law firm Ballard Spahr Andrews & Ingersoll, LLP.
The HANS Device is the #1 choice for performance, #1 for vision and #1 for winners.
Details and information about HANS Performance Products are available at www.hansdevice.com or by calling 1-888-HANS-999 or 770-457-1046.
HANS, the Safetyform shape and their derivative styles are trademarks of HANS Performance Products
SOURCE HANS Performance Products
12-11-2008, 03:57 PM
#49
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I haven't heard of any of the NASCAR guys report that their HANS failed from any of the multiple off angle impacts they have. Same as with many of the other sanctioning bodies around the country/world.
Are there instances you can point me to?
I agree, the discussion is healthy as long as it isn't biased or have personal agendas interjected.
Are there instances you can point me to?
I agree, the discussion is healthy as long as it isn't biased or have personal agendas interjected.
No, off the top of my head, I don't have the links....but I'm sure if I wanted to , I could find them; some have even been posted on Rennlist IIRC.
The use of a full containment/HALO seat (almost becoming a capsule) and/or double shoulder belts will help keep the HANS under the belts.
It does not take an engineering degree to look at the design and figure out its impossible to keep the HANS yoke under the belts in an off axis impact.....try holding a rope with weight attached at the bottom by only squeezing the rope between your 2 palms...you can only squeeze so tight.
12-11-2008, 03:59 PM
#50
Nordschleife Master
Makes more sense Lewis. Thanks for the explanation. So by running a HANS with proper belts and my Recaro Pro Racer SPA HANS I should have 99% of my bases covered?
12-11-2008, 04:15 PM
#51
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If you engage the belt laterally it cannot get lost. For example, these two configurations of the same product were tested yesterday on the Delphi sled and exceeded the 38.1 performance requirements for offset impacts. In fact, the HANS post connection version outperformed the HANS device itself.
This should be available in a about month with an introductory price of $99. (The MSRP will be higher.)
12-11-2008, 04:27 PM
#53
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Simply having the 'proper' equipment is just half the task. Proper installation and geometries are the second (and some would say the most important) half.
(BTW, according to H&D, the "proper" HANS belt is simply the good old fashioned 3" shoulder belt)
Simple checks:
Download the Schroth .pdf on competition harnesses (I've posted it in this forum on several occasions) and verify your harness geometries/angles/terminations against it.
(BTW, a forum member who I hold in high regard, John Hanjy (RedlineMan) has discussed this on multiple occasions...his past posts are recommended reading)
Download the latest HANS user guide and verify the recommended HANS belt geometries/terminations
You may be too tall or too short for your seat, belts and HANS termination geometries....this is the primary reason the "HANS" seats came into being....same seat, just larger "opening" to allow for more variations in torso height and thus, HANS belt terminations.
Very few of us run 'full containment' seats...the HALO protection will help minimize helmet to chassis structure impact in a side impact, but will do little to help keep your torso in the seat (and thus your HANS under your belts), since they provide more scapula support than containment.
12-11-2008, 04:32 PM
#54
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Mil spec webbing, stainless steel grommets, SS shear pin, T6 aluminum roller and a standard snap shackle. In one case the assembly is attached to the chin strap, in the other it is attached to the HANS quick release components.
12-11-2008, 06:45 PM
#55
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12-11-2008, 09:35 PM
#56
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Hey;
Lew is a steady and persistent bloke. Where it concerns the HANS battling physics, and sometimes losing, in offset hits, he also happens to be correct. The HANS can & does come adrift of the belts. I have the sled test footage to prove it. When you understand how the HANS works, it is not that difficult to understand how this can happen, in the abstract. It also happens for real, unfortunately.
The key to rendering the HANS more effective in offset hits (beyond bespoke perfect geometry and TIGHT belts) is a true head containment seat. In my estimation, there are not many "real" contaiment seats available. F1, INDYCAR and NASCAR (right side) are the only truly effective types. Unfortunately, they would not be feasible in a sports car. In my opinion, the best of the lot are the LaJoie SNS, the Kirkey 63 Series, and the Ultrashield Super Seat... arguably in that order. These seats, unfortunately, can be really tight fit in our cars.
Lew is a steady and persistent bloke. Where it concerns the HANS battling physics, and sometimes losing, in offset hits, he also happens to be correct. The HANS can & does come adrift of the belts. I have the sled test footage to prove it. When you understand how the HANS works, it is not that difficult to understand how this can happen, in the abstract. It also happens for real, unfortunately.
The key to rendering the HANS more effective in offset hits (beyond bespoke perfect geometry and TIGHT belts) is a true head containment seat. In my estimation, there are not many "real" contaiment seats available. F1, INDYCAR and NASCAR (right side) are the only truly effective types. Unfortunately, they would not be feasible in a sports car. In my opinion, the best of the lot are the LaJoie SNS, the Kirkey 63 Series, and the Ultrashield Super Seat... arguably in that order. These seats, unfortunately, can be really tight fit in our cars.
12-11-2008, 11:54 PM
#58
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Saw it and played with it today. Tomorrow morning I'm going back with my own helmet to install their anchors in the place of the HANS posts and going to really play a lot with it. Getting in and out of seat.
First impressions.
1. Much more comfortable than a HANS
2. It does not release as easily as the HANS. With the belt guides being more "positive" there is more resistance.
3. The parts of it are modular. If you accidentally break part of it by doing something stupid you aren't out an entire device.
4. The 'tethers' slide like a HANS. Not as smooth because of the secondary tethers that are for the lateral protection.
5. It comes higher off the chest than a HANS. In a reclined position with a helmet that has a large amount of material below the visor like the wizzy open wheel helmets there may be some contact.
6. One size fits most design is really nice. The adjustable recline has 3 positions which I'm gonna guess is equivalent to 10,20 and 30.
7. It's a bright green but those can be painted (the green is paint)
Rumors were swirling about the HANS suit. HANS called a few of the dealers that I know giving them a heads up that suit was going to be filed. I'm not a lawyer but outside of the very general resemblance it is far from the same creature. I'd say that the R3 is more similar to the HANS than the DefNder is.
If I come out of playing with it tomorrow thinking that it is something I would wear I'll have them ready to ship in about a week.
First impressions.
1. Much more comfortable than a HANS
2. It does not release as easily as the HANS. With the belt guides being more "positive" there is more resistance.
3. The parts of it are modular. If you accidentally break part of it by doing something stupid you aren't out an entire device.
4. The 'tethers' slide like a HANS. Not as smooth because of the secondary tethers that are for the lateral protection.
5. It comes higher off the chest than a HANS. In a reclined position with a helmet that has a large amount of material below the visor like the wizzy open wheel helmets there may be some contact.
6. One size fits most design is really nice. The adjustable recline has 3 positions which I'm gonna guess is equivalent to 10,20 and 30.
7. It's a bright green but those can be painted (the green is paint)
Rumors were swirling about the HANS suit. HANS called a few of the dealers that I know giving them a heads up that suit was going to be filed. I'm not a lawyer but outside of the very general resemblance it is far from the same creature. I'd say that the R3 is more similar to the HANS than the DefNder is.
If I come out of playing with it tomorrow thinking that it is something I would wear I'll have them ready to ship in about a week.
12-12-2008, 12:30 AM
#59
Rennlist Member
IMHO the Hans patent requires (1) the tether to be horizontal, and (2) the rear upright collar has to come up to about eye level. Neither seems to be true with the Defnder.
12-12-2008, 01:01 AM
#60
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I'm looking at this from an engineering standpoint, not a sales/political standpoint...we're all benefiting from these companies putting time and money into R&D and thinking of new ideas to keep us safer. There are some very nice features in many new devices, unfortunately many companies are getting very complex...and if there are any engineers in the room (and I know there are) you'll agree: Its much easier to design something complex than something simple.
I'm looking forward to 3-5 years down the road from now when lawsuits and politics have calmed down (somewhat) and we are left with very safe devices that we can all benefit from.
One of the things I see on the defender that might be an issue, and Circuit mentioned it before, was if your head dips down your helmet can hit the device. Just like when the belts had to be changed to have the sliding device moved down to clear...same thing.
I'm looking forward to 3-5 years down the road from now when lawsuits and politics have calmed down (somewhat) and we are left with very safe devices that we can all benefit from.
One of the things I see on the defender that might be an issue, and Circuit mentioned it before, was if your head dips down your helmet can hit the device. Just like when the belts had to be changed to have the sliding device moved down to clear...same thing.