2009 PCA rules changes posted
#16
Tim,
First of all, I thank you so much for talking to me on the phone while I was in the hospital, nurses going in and out and in and out. I owe you a beer, for sure. That place was driving me crazy! I'm at home now, constantly stuck on the couch. Just trying to heal up. It seems like everything I do hurts the shoulder.
Anyway, I was going to PM you and ask about your conversation with Donna. Then, I thought about calling. I'm glad you posted on here for us.
Here's my reaction: Although I don't know what I would do differently if the goal was to make all of those cars compete in one single class. With that being the goal, all I can say is that it sucks that cars like mine (997 3.8) have to be 3200lbs, which will feel lethargic incomparison to the 3.4, just so they can compete with cars like that. That's a lot of weight, and not exactly what I think a "race car" should feel like. I mean, we have to go full-on with these cars. They aren't streetable. We go after it so we can have a good, modern race car that doesn't have all the maintenance expense of a Cup Car, but still will feel 80-90% like one, being a nimble REAL race car. But now, we have to have these cages, full race prep, and then weigh in at 3200. I'm not sure I get that. At all. Thank you so much for looking out for us though and sharing with us what you learned. I speak for all of us when I say, THANK YOU TIM!
First of all, I thank you so much for talking to me on the phone while I was in the hospital, nurses going in and out and in and out. I owe you a beer, for sure. That place was driving me crazy! I'm at home now, constantly stuck on the couch. Just trying to heal up. It seems like everything I do hurts the shoulder.
Anyway, I was going to PM you and ask about your conversation with Donna. Then, I thought about calling. I'm glad you posted on here for us.
Here's my reaction: Although I don't know what I would do differently if the goal was to make all of those cars compete in one single class. With that being the goal, all I can say is that it sucks that cars like mine (997 3.8) have to be 3200lbs, which will feel lethargic incomparison to the 3.4, just so they can compete with cars like that. That's a lot of weight, and not exactly what I think a "race car" should feel like. I mean, we have to go full-on with these cars. They aren't streetable. We go after it so we can have a good, modern race car that doesn't have all the maintenance expense of a Cup Car, but still will feel 80-90% like one, being a nimble REAL race car. But now, we have to have these cages, full race prep, and then weigh in at 3200. I'm not sure I get that. At all. Thank you so much for looking out for us though and sharing with us what you learned. I speak for all of us when I say, THANK YOU TIM!
I am watching just as much in anticipation as if the weights are fair FOR ALL OPTIONS in the class I might just be tempted to sell my G stock RSA and move to GTB.
#18
anyone know why power steering pump pulleys are allowed for boxsters but not caymans?
#19
Tim,
First of all, I thank you so much for talking to me on the phone while I was in the hospital, nurses going in and out and in and out. I owe you a beer, for sure. That place was driving me crazy! I'm at home now, constantly stuck on the couch. Just trying to heal up. It seems like everything I do hurts the shoulder.
Anyway, I was going to PM you and ask about your conversation with Donna. Then, I thought about calling. I'm glad you posted on here for us.
Here's my reaction: Although I don't know what I would do differently if the goal was to make all of those cars compete in one single class. With that being the goal, all I can say is that it sucks that cars like mine (997 3.8) have to be 3200lbs, which will feel lethargic incomparison to the 3.4, just so they can compete with cars like that. That's a lot of weight, and not exactly what I think a "race car" should feel like. I mean, we have to go full-on with these cars. They aren't streetable. We go after it so we can have a good, modern race car that doesn't have all the maintenance expense of a Cup Car, but still will feel 80-90% like one, being a nimble REAL race car. But now, we have to have these cages, full race prep, and then weigh in at 3200. I'm not sure I get that. At all. Thank you so much for looking out for us though and sharing with us what you learned. I speak for all of us when I say, THANK YOU TIM!
First of all, I thank you so much for talking to me on the phone while I was in the hospital, nurses going in and out and in and out. I owe you a beer, for sure. That place was driving me crazy! I'm at home now, constantly stuck on the couch. Just trying to heal up. It seems like everything I do hurts the shoulder.
Anyway, I was going to PM you and ask about your conversation with Donna. Then, I thought about calling. I'm glad you posted on here for us.
Here's my reaction: Although I don't know what I would do differently if the goal was to make all of those cars compete in one single class. With that being the goal, all I can say is that it sucks that cars like mine (997 3.8) have to be 3200lbs, which will feel lethargic incomparison to the 3.4, just so they can compete with cars like that. That's a lot of weight, and not exactly what I think a "race car" should feel like. I mean, we have to go full-on with these cars. They aren't streetable. We go after it so we can have a good, modern race car that doesn't have all the maintenance expense of a Cup Car, but still will feel 80-90% like one, being a nimble REAL race car. But now, we have to have these cages, full race prep, and then weigh in at 3200. I'm not sure I get that. At all. Thank you so much for looking out for us though and sharing with us what you learned. I speak for all of us when I say, THANK YOU TIM!
As Dell pointed out, there needs to be a way to make all the various engine designs and sizes competitive in the same class, or you'll end up with 3-4 different classes, and only 1or2 cars in each. Similar to GT classes where the tire you select determines one class or another - ridiculous IMO.
Remember, stock RSA's run at 3100+/- lbs with A LOT less power as your 3.8 engine. So...if you want to go with 3.8 engine AND as light as possible, there's always GT2 class...
__________________
Bob Saville
Getting You On Track!
www.naroescapemotorsports.com
704-395-2975
'07 SPC
'71 914/6 Huey
'04 GT3
Bob Saville
Getting You On Track!
www.naroescapemotorsports.com
704-395-2975
- Data Analysis & Coaching
- Drivers Gear
- Crew Gear
- Car Gear
'07 SPC
'71 914/6 Huey
'04 GT3
#20
Just to add one more thing with respect to you comment Jared "That's a lot of weight, and not exactly what I think a "race car" should feel like."
If you want a "race car" that is what the GTC classes are for. You just need to make a decision of what exactly you want out of Club Racing and what you would be most happy driving within your budget.
For me, I think the best platform (and it shows by the numbers as well) is the GTC3 class. Large field, true race cars, good competition. Unfortunately that is a class that if I ran right now would make me car poor and I couldn't afford to walk away from the car should the worst happen. The two classes for me right now are G stock and GTB. If the weight are more to my liking I will probably come over to GTB if my RSA sells quick enough.
If you want a "race car" that is what the GTC classes are for. You just need to make a decision of what exactly you want out of Club Racing and what you would be most happy driving within your budget.
For me, I think the best platform (and it shows by the numbers as well) is the GTC3 class. Large field, true race cars, good competition. Unfortunately that is a class that if I ran right now would make me car poor and I couldn't afford to walk away from the car should the worst happen. The two classes for me right now are G stock and GTB. If the weight are more to my liking I will probably come over to GTB if my RSA sells quick enough.
#21
Dell,
Not sure I get your point of GTB then if your criteria for a best class is large field. GTB has only 2 or 3 cars in a field in most races. And if they split that up, it makes it even worse. Trust me, it's not a lot of fun racing nobody....
Not sure I get your point of GTB then if your criteria for a best class is large field. GTB has only 2 or 3 cars in a field in most races. And if they split that up, it makes it even worse. Trust me, it's not a lot of fun racing nobody....
#22
I never said that Bob. That was what I said for GTC. For me, personally, I would want to run G or GTB right now. G b/c the competition is great and the fields are large. GTB is my other class I would want to run b/c (1) my experience in the 996 platform; and (2) the class is starting to gain some support. If they just get the weights sorted out, I could very easily be pulled over to GTB
#23
Guys. The weights I proposed has me having to add a little bit of weight. But, if I have to add much more, then I won't be doing any GTB racing this year. I just don't think it's safe to have 200 pounds of ballast on my car.
#25
Open the engine bay
#26
Yeah, but you had a bit more power to push it around. I've ran my car at a heavier weight...takes the fun factor out of it. I have to agree with Jared on this one. For example, I gained 1.5 secs at Roebling by eliminating a little over 100 pounds. Plus, I'm not going to be adding a lot of crap back to my car after a NASA race, just to race with PCA. Lastly, I built my car with GTB in mind...kinda sux to add a bunch of weight back at this point.
#27
#28
Yeah, but you had a bit more power to push it around. I've ran my car at a heavier weight...takes the fun factor out of it. I have to agree with Jared on this one. For example, I gained 1.5 secs at Roebling by eliminating a little over 100 pounds. Plus, I'm not going to be adding a lot of crap back to my car after a NASA race, just to race with PCA. Lastly, I built my car with GTB in mind...kinda sux to add a bunch of weight back at this point.
But you can on the x51
#29
I've spent a great deal of time, money and effort sorting my car this year. I believe I have it very close to the best it can be. I could, however, get more weight out of my car, but not much more. My car weighs approx. 2720 with a few gallons of fuel currently, and I have a rather heavy roll cage. It is a 2003 996 with an X51 3.6 engine. I believe that the best someone could obtain with a 3.4 would be about 2600 lbs, without driver, as they should be a little lighter to begin with. So, using that weight with a driver would start things at around 2800 pounds with driver at best for a 3.4. I think 2750, although obtainable, is just too low and would limit some of us heavier drivers. Currently, the rules allow for carbon doors like the cup, but I would also allow a carbon hood. I don't see it being a big safety factor and is an easy mod to decrease a significant amount of weight. I totally agree that no carbon fiber body panels be allowed.
As an upper limit, using strickly a power weight ratio doesn't make sense as it is around 3600 pounds. The thing would handle like a pig and require 997 owners with an X51 to add too much weight. Therefore, an upper limit of 3100 with an added 50 pound for the 997 body style is best for a total of 3150 pounds for the 3.8, X51. You have to put some kind of factor in for the body style change...997 have better suspension geometry, chassis and abs system than the 996. (In other words, if you built both cars with the same mods and identical horsepower, the 997 would be a better handling car...hence the extra 50 pounds)
So, I used the difference in horsepower to create a factor for each car/engine to establish a weight to correspond with the added horsepower, using the upper and lower limits I've created here.
996
3.4 - 2800
3.6 - 2886
3.6 X51 - 2975
997
3.6 - 2954
3.8 - 3061
3.8 X51 - 3150
I've also attached the spreadsheet I used to figure the weights. Please check the factory HP to make sure my numbers are correct.
The only thing not factored in is that an X51 engine won't enjoy as much benefit to allowed modifications as the other engines will. In other words, a standard 3.6 may increase by 8-10% with bolt-on mods, while an X51 3.6 may only see 3-5% in gain. But, I think the difference there won't matter a great deal.
Lastly, I wouldn't place a great deal of emphasis on Koni rules. They don't allow X51's or the Carrera S and are not a GT type car. However, they are excellent cars to start with as they usually have an expensive wiring harness that elminates stability management and reduces a chunk of wiring weight.
#30
Here is the table I used to get the weights. PM me if you want the spreadsheet. It didn't transfer too well here.
(Type) (Factory HP) (Add HP) (Factor) (Min Weight)
996
(3.4) (296) (0) (0%) (2800)
(3.6) (320) (24) (28.57%) (2886)
(3.6, X51) (345) (49) (58.33%) (2975)
997
(3.6) (325) (29) (34.52%) (2954) *50 pounds added to
(3.8) (355) (59) (70.24%) (3061) each 997 weight.
(3.8, X51) (380) (84) (100%) (3150)
Add HP = Amount above lowest HP
Factor = Amount above Baseline HP div by 84, max HP
Min Weight = Factor X weight spread (300) + Baseline weight
(Type) (Factory HP) (Add HP) (Factor) (Min Weight)
996
(3.4) (296) (0) (0%) (2800)
(3.6) (320) (24) (28.57%) (2886)
(3.6, X51) (345) (49) (58.33%) (2975)
997
(3.6) (325) (29) (34.52%) (2954) *50 pounds added to
(3.8) (355) (59) (70.24%) (3061) each 997 weight.
(3.8, X51) (380) (84) (100%) (3150)
Add HP = Amount above lowest HP
Factor = Amount above Baseline HP div by 84, max HP
Min Weight = Factor X weight spread (300) + Baseline weight