LVDell

Jared, I think you are missing the point. The point is to allow all 996 and 997 non-GT3 (read C2 Carrera's) cars with the various motor packages to be COMPETITIVE. Period. If not, then the various GTB cars will NEVER be on an equal playing field. Unless of course they want it to continue to be a checkbook racing class. He with the biggest checkbook will have the fastest and lightest car. Not saying that he or she would win, but same driver in all the cars is the way you need to look at it. What weights would need to be on all the various motor/chassis combos (3.4, 3.6, 3.6x51, 3.8, 3.8x51) to produce equal times with the same driver.

I am watching just as much in anticipation as if the weights are fair FOR ALL OPTIONS in the class I might just be tempted to sell my G stock RSA and move to GTB.

A.Wayne

ladies first

Geoffrey

There was no proposal to allow underdrive pulleys on Caymans. If you want something, then use the rules change process.

NaroEscape

Hey Jared,
As Dell pointed out, there needs to be a way to make all the various engine designs and sizes competitive in the same class, or you'll end up with 3-4 different classes, and only 1or2 cars in each. Similar to GT classes where the tire you select determines one class or another - ridiculous IMO.

Remember, stock RSA's run at 3100+/- lbs with A LOT less power as your 3.8 engine. So...if you want to go with 3.8 engine AND as light as possible, there's always GT2 class...

LVDell

Just to add one more thing with respect to you comment Jared "That's a lot of weight, and not exactly what I think a "race car" should feel like."

If you want a "race car" that is what the GTC classes are for. You just need to make a decision of what exactly you want out of Club Racing and what you would be most happy driving within your budget.

For me, I think the best platform (and it shows by the numbers as well) is the GTC3 class. Large field, true race cars, good competition. Unfortunately that is a class that if I ran right now would make me car poor and I couldn't afford to walk away from the car should the worst happen. The two classes for me right now are G stock and GTB. If the weight are more to my liking I will probably come over to GTB if my RSA sells quick enough.

NaroEscape

Dell,
Not sure I get your point of GTB then if your criteria for a best class is large field. GTB has only 2 or 3 cars in a field in most races. And if they split that up, it makes it even worse. Trust me, it's not a lot of fun racing nobody....

LVDell

I never said that Bob. That was what I said for GTC. For me, personally, I would want to run G or GTB right now. G b/c the competition is great and the fields are large. GTB is my other class I would want to run b/c (1) my experience in the 996 platform; and (2) the class is starting to gain some support. If they just get the weights sorted out, I could very easily be pulled over to GTB

TraqGear

Guys. The weights I proposed has me having to add a little bit of weight. But, if I have to add much more, then I won't be doing any GTB racing this year. I just don't think it's safe to have 200 pounds of ballast on my car.

NaroEscape

Question: how can you tell if a car has the X51 package on it? is it something easy to tell?

LVDell

Ah come on Roger, there are other ways to add weight back to the car. Trust me, I ran my GT3 at 3250 with driver and 1/8 of tank of gas so there are ways it can be done just fine. And the car was not a lethargic pig by any stretch at that weight.

Open the engine bay

TraqGear

Yeah, but you had a bit more power to push it around. I've ran my car at a heavier weight...takes the fun factor out of it. I have to agree with Jared on this one. For example, I gained 1.5 secs at Roebling by eliminating a little over 100 pounds. Plus, I'm not going to be adding a lot of crap back to my car after a NASA race, just to race with PCA. Lastly, I built my car with GTB in mind...kinda sux to add a bunch of weight back at this point.

NaroEscape

smart *** .... so I guess you can see a difference? there was nothing you could readily see with the X50 package on a 996 Turbo.

LVDell

But at roughly 3250 with driver! I had the SAME power (actually 1hp less) that Gilbert has in his uber light 3.8 x51 car. Fun factor? I think you are missing the point as well. Either GTB has to be an all inclusive class with weight min for the various packages or the cars need to gun GT class then. You can't have your cake and eat it too in GTB. Either you are the lightest with the 3.4 or the heaviest with the 3.8 x51. You decide what you want. It sounds to me like you are slotted perfectly for the best of both worlds anyway. IMHO your car in the new weight format should be in the 3000-3100 range with driver. And no, you don't have to bolt 200# or ballast to achieve this. Heck, you can get 50# with a full cool suit box!

But you can on the x51

TraqGear

3000 is doable, but not ideal. 3100, forget it. Not only would it suck, but it would make the X51 997 way too heavy. I'm 225 lbs. For someone at 155 and a higher powered car in the field, it's going to have to be a heavy car. Here is what I proposed as stated to PCA:

I've spent a great deal of time, money and effort sorting my car this year. I believe I have it very close to the best it can be. I could, however, get more weight out of my car, but not much more. My car weighs approx. 2720 with a few gallons of fuel currently, and I have a rather heavy roll cage. It is a 2003 996 with an X51 3.6 engine. I believe that the best someone could obtain with a 3.4 would be about 2600 lbs, without driver, as they should be a little lighter to begin with. So, using that weight with a driver would start things at around 2800 pounds with driver at best for a 3.4. I think 2750, although obtainable, is just too low and would limit some of us heavier drivers. Currently, the rules allow for carbon doors like the cup, but I would also allow a carbon hood. I don't see it being a big safety factor and is an easy mod to decrease a significant amount of weight. I totally agree that no carbon fiber body panels be allowed.

As an upper limit, using strickly a power weight ratio doesn't make sense as it is around 3600 pounds. The thing would handle like a pig and require 997 owners with an X51 to add too much weight. Therefore, an upper limit of 3100 with an added 50 pound for the 997 body style is best for a total of 3150 pounds for the 3.8, X51. You have to put some kind of factor in for the body style change...997 have better suspension geometry, chassis and abs system than the 996. (In other words, if you built both cars with the same mods and identical horsepower, the 997 would be a better handling car...hence the extra 50 pounds)

So, I used the difference in horsepower to create a factor for each car/engine to establish a weight to correspond with the added horsepower, using the upper and lower limits I've created here.

996
3.4 - 2800
3.6 - 2886
3.6 X51 - 2975
997
3.6 - 2954
3.8 - 3061
3.8 X51 - 3150

I've also attached the spreadsheet I used to figure the weights. Please check the factory HP to make sure my numbers are correct.

The only thing not factored in is that an X51 engine won't enjoy as much benefit to allowed modifications as the other engines will. In other words, a standard 3.6 may increase by 8-10% with bolt-on mods, while an X51 3.6 may only see 3-5% in gain. But, I think the difference there won't matter a great deal.

Lastly, I wouldn't place a great deal of emphasis on Koni rules. They don't allow X51's or the Carrera S and are not a GT type car. However, they are excellent cars to start with as they usually have an expensive wiring harness that elminates stability management and reduces a chunk of wiring weight.

TraqGear

Here is the table I used to get the weights. PM me if you want the spreadsheet. It didn't transfer too well here.

(Type) (Factory HP) (Add HP) (Factor) (Min Weight)

996
(3.4) (296) (0) (0%) (2800)
(3.6) (320) (24) (28.57%) (2886)
(3.6, X51) (345) (49) (58.33%) (2975)
997
(3.6) (325) (29) (34.52%) (2954) *50 pounds added to
(3.8) (355) (59) (70.24%) (3061) each 997 weight.
(3.8, X51) (380) (84) (100%) (3150)


Add HP = Amount above lowest HP
Factor = Amount above Baseline HP div by 84, max HP
Min Weight = Factor X weight spread (300) + Baseline weight