Matias_S

Very cool thread. Pls keep the stories coming.

I travel to J'burg / Pretoria maybe every second month or so. Any chance to hook up for track session/instruction? This month I will be in Cape Town so that probably does not work...

deep_uv

Great thread, Pierre. Keep it coming. Thanks for sharing!!!!

mark kibort

I havent seen the posts about it. I dont know how i could miss that!

anyway, how did you do those front fenders? any pics.

what is it powered by? If it is slow, you probably just need that blower or a stroker. the reason 928s have that nasty push, is that there is too much rake, and the pinner front tires just wont cut it. Ive dealt with that for 10 years of racing the 928, and im going to fix it next year with some big tires up front and a little wider there as well.


Mk

[QUOTE=Pierre Martins;5958845]I thought you knew about the car. Been posting about it in the 928 forum. This is the first year racing this car. We built the thing and put it on track as is. No development yet, but it's given me two class wins, a couple of thirds and seconds and currently 11th in the overall championship (+/- 40 regular entries) with one round to go. But it's too slow for me. It needs a supercharger and it understeers coming out of tight corners. I'm steering on the throttle to overcome that, but I'm going through tyres like there's no tomorrow.



QUOTE]

Pierre Martins

Sure thing. Just PM your contact details to me when you're ready and we'll set something up.

Pierre Martins

Thanks. I have plenty more to share.

Pierre Martins

[QUOTE=mark kibort;5961896]I havent seen the posts about it. I dont know how i could miss that!

anyway, how did you do those front fenders? any pics.

what is it powered by? If it is slow, you probably just need that blower or a stroker. the reason 928s have that nasty push, is that there is too much rake, and the pinner front tires just wont cut it. Ive dealt with that for 10 years of racing the 928, and im going to fix it next year with some big tires up front and a little wider there as well.


Mk

Mark,

The front fenders are fibreglass jobbies. As a matter of fact the entire body is fibreglass, sans doors, roof and rear hatch. I'll post some pics of the work soon.

The engine is a bone stock '83 with 300hp at the fly. Pretty weak. I want to put a supercharger badly, but our currency has just turned into monopoly money against the Dollar so I'll probably do a close ratio crash box first, along with a bigger radiator and some other upgrades like wider font wheels and custom struts to drop the car another 20mm and allow for more negative camber in front. I can have that done locally, so it's not gonna rip a huge hole in my bank account. The supercharger can always come later.

Here's a pic from the first shakedown earlier this year -

mark kibort

Interesting. Yes, the 83 vintage is pretty slow, not bad if its a euro (euro I imagine right?) even still, a euro with headers is only going to put out about 250-270rwhp. and you will never be able to take advantage of all that beauty due to lack of power. a crash box is a bad investment, as you hp curve is going to be pretty flat around the shift ranges, so that wont buy you much. Ive run a stock radiator for YEARs, and so has Anderson with no issues with double the hp!! What is the weight? sounds like it could be in the 2600lb range empty. Not bad, but you need at least 300 rwhp (370hp flyhwheel) for the platform to be fun. competitive, probably 350rwhp to 450rwhp.

as far as lowering the car, thats important for handling and the stock configuration does this well, just need the right springs and shocks. even the stock replacement shocks will work with cut springs. Scot ran a 1:40.xx at laguna seca with the 5 liter US euro hybrid with 290rwhp and this configuration. You dont need more camber than about 1.7 to 2 degrees up front to handle on the track. the suspension geometry is much different than BMWs and 911s that require 3-4 degrees up front. Anderson did this for awhile and when he backed off the camber to where i was, his car handled better and he wasnt going through front tires as fast. Big tires on your set up will work great. Its one of the mods im doing over the winter.

mk



[QUOTE=Pierre Martins;5962739]

Pierre Martins

[QUOTE=mark kibort;5962949]Interesting. Yes, the 83 vintage is pretty slow, not bad if its a euro (euro I imagine right?) even still, a euro with headers is only going to put out about 250-270rwhp. and you will never be able to take advantage of all that beauty due to lack of power. a crash box is a bad investment, as you hp curve is going to be pretty flat around the shift ranges, so that wont buy you much. Ive run a stock radiator for YEARs, and so has Anderson with no issues with double the hp!! What is the weight? sounds like it could be in the 2600lb range empty. Not bad, but you need at least 300 rwhp (370hp flyhwheel) for the platform to be fun. competitive, probably 350rwhp to 450rwhp.

as far as lowering the car, thats important for handling and the stock configuration does this well, just need the right springs and shocks. even the stock replacement shocks will work with cut springs. Scot ran a 1:40.xx at laguna seca with the 5 liter US euro hybrid with 290rwhp and this configuration. You dont need more camber than about 1.7 to 2 degrees up front to handle on the track. the suspension geometry is much different than BMWs and 911s that require 3-4 degrees up front. Anderson did this for awhile and when he backed off the camber to where i was, his car handled better and he wasnt going through front tires as fast. Big tires on your set up will work great. Its one of the mods im doing over the winter.

mk



Yes, mine is an '83 Euro. More power will be added in time to come, but I see no point in adding power when there are other bases to cover. In my experience some 928s run hot, others don't. Don't ask me why. I've been unfortunate to be saddled with one that needs more in the cooling dept. First obvious thing to do is put a bigger radiator, so that's what I'm doing. As for the crash box being a bad investment, it depends what ratios you run and it brings some long term cost savings to the party. Have you priced OEM dog teeth lately? Besides, I like left foot braking and getting the thing loose, if you know what I mean. Heel and toe and working the clutch just slow you down. I'm still learning about front end geometry with this thing. Wider rubber seems to be the obvious quick fix, but every car is set up differently. On your car for instance, you don't have the lower cross brace from Faussett and that makes a big change to front end. Those chassis legs deflect a lot without them. Anderson's car is properly seamwelded and sports a much more rigid cage than you and I have, so it's not a cut and paste scenario like you have with trial and tested aftermaket stuff in the 911 world. 928s are more trial and error, in my opinion.

Cheers for now,
Pierre.

mark kibort

The lower cross brace is "suspected" of helping. if you have looked under the front of the 928, you will see what i mean. Plus i have hours of fender-cam video not showing anything detectable as far as flex, nor does my tire wear show this either. The estimated .5degrees of camber that is saved makes no sense and has not be proved. by the way, compliance is compliance. If the chassis is flexing and you tune around it, it becomes part of the system, until it changes and you cant change it back . Keep in mind, that Anderson figured out the camber thing before he added any bars and added the extra 75hp on to his beast. now, it is a real race car, but it wasnt until he did all those things that it was kicked up to the next level.
Joe Fans beast has none of the cage and chassis mods and has been driven by mark who noted that it handles better than his car! It also has a much cheaper suspension using the circle track shocks and decent springs, rather than the Motons that Anderson's sports. Certainly as the hp goes up , some of the suspension and chassis requirements change. There is only so much that a 270rwhp /2600lb race car can do. transmission changes and bar stiffenings will do very little. widen the car and grab some bigger tires up front along with some more HP and the car will be a lot of fun. (thats what ive seen!)

So, we have a lot of race tested data on different things that have worked on some very fast 928s over the last 10 years. after all, doesnt Mark beat most all of the best porsches in the POC /PCA races. Or at least consistantly in the top 5.
I know you are in to a bunch of other very cool projects, and this might be low on the totem pole. however, if you were get the most bang for the buck and time, put on some big tires up front, and kick up the power a bit with the blower and fix the cooling issues . Ive owned or helped race 5 928s. All of them had cooling issues that were fixed perminantly. usually, its something simple like getting the air out of the system, stuck t-stat, bad water pump,or bad block seal (or clogged radiator). Usually, its the other things and not the radiator.
Hey, sounds like you like projects and the car looks great, so let us know what happens next with the 928 fat -bully

mk




[QUOTE=Pierre Martins;5963259]

Pierre Martins

So anyway, this thread wasn't really intended to be pedantic about anything in particular, especially not the setup on my slow poke 928, so here's something of a different nature...


















The story -

Head to head in two Bailey-Edwards replicas.

Getting out of a warm bed at sparrow’s fart on a cold winter’s morning and sitting in traffic at the Allendale off-ramp for twenty minutes is not something to get excited about, but this time I was on my way to an early morning test session at Kyalami to drive one of the Bailey Edwards GT40 replicas. Of all the GT40s built by Bailey-Edwards to date, about sixty percent were built for street use. The other forty percent went to customers who wanted all-out race cars. The idea behind this test was to take an example of each around a track to see how a Bailey-Edwards street legal GT40 compares to one in full race trim.

The first car on the agenda turned out to be Craig Shorter’s lovely orange street-legal GT40. My first impressions of this car – it’s very pretty and very loud, a hot car, no doubt. “Tabasco” would be an appropriate nickname for this car.

The attention to detail and workmanship Peter Bailey put into building these cars is just outstanding. This particular car is a work of art. It’s one of those cars that gives you the feeling it’s too valuable to take it out on track. I was about to do just that, 460 horse power on street tyres, around Kyalami. And then I saw the tyres - Those hard compound jobbies with wobbly sidewalls BF Goodrich makes for straight-line yankee muscle cars. That had me concerned for a moment, but I was strapped in and fired the thing up without worrying too much about the silly choice in rubber. That special moment when a powerful pushrod V8 splutters into life took care of all my worries. I decided to do two warm ups, got some heat into the tyres, and then put a few decent laps together to feel out the car. This test was not about lap times, the car was someone else’s baby and I intended taking good care of it, but I also wanted to find out what the car was capable of.

460 horsepower before morning coffee, yes sir!

No need to rev the thing silly. You just stick it in a higher gear, plant your right foot and let the engine do its job. Bucket loads of torque shove you out of corners. Nice lazy power, but this particular car was not an easy car to drive. It needed ten times more grip than the tyres were offering. Way too easy to light up the rears out of slow corners at the slightest provocation. This was a classic case of crappy tyres making a good setup feel bad. Over bumps the rear end bounced around because the sidewalls were too soft for the stiff suspension and the front tyres offered very little lateral stability on turn in. It was a handful. Be that as it may, I still enjoyed the thing immensely. By lap three I saw two black lines I had left the lap before in Wesbank corner, exiting the bowl and coming out of the bus stop. I decided to play, trying to overlay new rubber at the same places each time I came around. In a way the Tabasco car took me back in time. Back to 1964 when Bruce McLaren and Roy Salvadori tested the first 4,2-litre 350 horse power GT40 on dodgy tyres of that era. They should make a movie about that piece of motoring history. A car named GT40 because it was just over forty inches high, measured at the windscreen as per LeMans rules. A car that was conceived because old man Enzo backed out of selling Ferrari to Ford and Henry Ford decided to build a sports prototype to beat Ferrari where it would hurt the most - at LeMans. Success eluded Ford with the fist GT40s, the Mk1s. It’s only when they came with the more powerful and improved 485hp Mk2’s that things really started happening for Ford. And oh man, they did it in a big way! Blew Ferrari away in endurance races all over the world, Daytona 24hrs, LeMans 24hrs, Nurburgring, Silverstone, you name it. They even ran amok in our Springbok Series, the famous 9-hour at the old Kyalami and cleaned up at Roy Hesketh, East London and Killarney in ’65, if memory serves me right.

But I’m not here to give you history lessons. There are enough books and websites out there that chronicle GT40 successes throughout the late sixties and early seventies. For now I’d rather talk about the feeling you get from a true GT40 replica and what it feels like on a race track. And I mean a true replica of the real GT40. In my opinion Bailey-Edwards cars are thoroughbred race replicas, not kit car look-alikes bolted together on a donor chassis. As Peter Bailey says, his cars are no garage queens, they’re meant to be driven and raced. The Tabasco car is a prime example. A pretty car that you can use on the road, occasionally take the wife to dinner (Thanks to the T-top doors it’s probably one of the easiest sports cars for a lady to get in and out of), show it off at Cars-In-The-Park and other club events, and yet it’s up to the task should you wish to use it as a competitive weekend circuit racer. It will turn heads everywhere you go. Hell, what more do you want from a track toy? Of course if you prefer something more hardcore you could always order a car in knockdown form and assemble your own all-out race car in your garage, with full factory backup from Bailey-Edwards.

Maybe you want something more radical? Well let's talk about the second car I tested for this article - Keith Gillmore’s blue GT40 racer. This particular car was not built by Bailey-Edwards, it was supplied in knockdown form to Keith Gillmore, who built the car and raced it for a couple of seasons in Historics. This time we tested at Zwartkops at the usual Wednesday afternoon open track session. Keith Gillmore’s blue racer wasn’t as pretty and detailed as Craig Shorter’s Tabasco car. It looked more like a raw and purposeful race car, on fat slicks. This thing looked like something right up my alley, the kinda car that looks fast even when it’s standing still. I was excited to get behind the wheel of this puppy. Sadly the blue car turned out to be a bit of a disappointment. Peter had recently traded the car in and had no time to prep it prior to this test, so I had to drive it in the condition it was last raced in. For starters I didn’t like the setup on this car. The front end was way too soft and the brakes were terrible. The soft front made the rear end very nervous in fast sweepers. A tad too much steering or throttle input and the *** would step out, even on sticky GoodYear slicks.

There are two places at Zwartkops where you hit the clamps hard – The entry to the hairpin and the entry to the table top. The car went stupid in those places, pitching violently sideways every time I hit the pedal. The big AP brakes were shuddering and offered very little stopping power, probably due to glazed pads and warped discs. A problem not indicative of the braking systems on other Bailey-Edwards cars I’ve driven. There were other issues as well. The throttle was way too heavy and the gear ratios were too tall for Zwartkops, but I stayed out till the flag dropped. Not because I had to, because I was having a joll. This car was a blast to drive despite all the minor little irritations. It’s a car capable of 1’10”s around Zwartkops using only two gears – third and fourth. I can vouch that 460hp in a lightweight mid-engine sports prototype is good enough to spin the rear wheels coming out of the hairpin in third gear. Turn four became a 4th gear corner, no need to shift down. Just dab the brakes on entry, pitch it in and feed the power on. It pulls strong up the hill to the table top. You can do the entire table top in third, short shift in the esses to reduce wheelspin on the rundown from the table and still surprise yourself with your entry speed into the final corner. This thing’s got power. It will pick up its skirt and gallop whenever you stomp the go-fast pedal.

And that was that. Two similar cars by the same manufacturer, yet they felt very different on a race track. There were things I liked, and things I disliked about both cars. The Tabasco car was tested on **** tyres. The blue car had post-race fatigue. It would be wrong to judge either car too harshly. Both cars are inherently good and well-constructed. I rate either one of these cars capable of 1’08”s around Zwartkops given proper tyres and a good suspension setup. Personally I would do something to make the throttle lighter and more responsive in both cars. I didn’t like the steering ratio either, you need to turn the wheel far too much to make the thing react in tight corners.

In the end I have to admit I had a blast testing the Bailey-Edwards GT40s. They really felt like the cheeky American sports prototype that came along at a time in motorsport history when the Europeans needed a wake up call. A decade later it took a monster like the 917 to wrestle endurance racing laurels away from the GT40s. I’ve been fortunate to test the Bailey-Edwards 917 too, you can read about that earlier in this thread.

Cheers,
Pierre.

Pierre Martins

[QUOTE=mark kibort;5963734]The lower cross brace is "suspected" of helping. if you have looked under the front of the 928, you will see what i mean. Plus i have hours of fender-cam video not showing anything detectable as far as flex, nor does my tire wear show this either. The estimated .5degrees of camber that is saved makes no sense and has not be proved. by the way, compliance is compliance. If the chassis is flexing and you tune around it, it becomes part of the system, until it changes and you cant change it back . Keep in mind, that Anderson figured out the camber thing before he added any bars and added the extra 75hp on to his beast. now, it is a real race car, but it wasnt until he did all those things that it was kicked up to the next level.

So, we have a lot of race tested data on different things that have worked on some very fast 928s over the last 10 years. after all, doesnt Mark beat most all of the best porsches in the POC /PCA races. Or at least consistantly in the top 5.
I know you are in to a bunch of other very cool projects, and this might be low on the totem pole. however, if you were get the most bang for the buck and time, put on some big tires up front, and kick up the power a bit with the blower and fix the cooling issues . Ive owned or helped race 5 928s. All of them had cooling issues that were fixed perminantly. usually, its something simple like getting the air out of the system, stuck t-stat, bad water pump,or bad block seal (or clogged radiator). Usually, its the other things and not the radiator.
Hey, sounds like you like projects and the car looks great, so let us know what happens next with the 928 fat -bully

mk








Hey Mark don't get me wrong, I can learn a lot from you. As a matter of fact, I know more about your car (and just about every other track 928 for that matter) than you think I do. (trawling the internet) I like to do my homework and I'd love to chat to you more about 928 setup and whatnot, but this thread is perhaps not the time and place. Here I'm just talking smack and sharing some on track experiences.

You have far more 928 racing experience than me, so I'm hoping to pick your brains sometime in future, if that's okay by you...

Cheers,
Pierre.

Pierre Martins

Oh and by the way, that lower brace really does work, believe it or not. I read what Carl had to say about it on his website and cheapskate that I am, I didn't order one from him. I made my own. First time I drove the car after that my first thoughts were "son of a bitch, it really does work" just like Carl said. It takes that bouncy nervousness out of the front end. You can take my word on that.

Keep an open mind in this sport and always keep options in the back of your mind, even when you think they're BS options.

But that's enough of that for now.

mark kibort

I might just have to bolt one on and see. I am always willing to try new things. That's how my car has evolved. If carl wants a testimonial, he should send me one if it is as easy to put on as it looks. Then, Ill do a test day with it and report back.

I dont have any bouncy nearvousness in my front end, just a too-small-tire push up there!

We can take this off line when you want to chat.

Great pics of the GT40. One of my favorite cars these days. What a beast!

By the way, i enjoyed the testing story. I think you should drive my car when you get over here. Its 2700lbs empty, and has near the 460flyweel hp of the GT40. Yet, the way the Hobert car has evolved, it is very tame. never does the power feel uneasy. never does the back end step out. you are able to mash the gas almost anywhere and it just goes. if you check out the last in-car video from our last race at Thunderhill, you can see all the strong points and weaknesses of the car. Its only real weakness is its weight and its push tendencies in the 80mph sweepers. that could be easily fixed by the larger tires up front. otherwise, its low speed manners and acceleration is excelent. Not bad for a car put togther with metwrench.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yusCDwWJz0


mk

Pierre Martins

Mark, been trying to get into that video, but U-tube says it doesn't exist anymore. Refreshed it a dozen times.

mark kibort

Thats odd. It works for me and some others.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yusCDwWJz0

How about just going to the user name Zanick and go to the videos. select the most recent 2. They are this video and the rear view cam.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGCPvtXCn_8&NR=1

Let me know and Ill post it on Vimeo if it doesnt work that way.

Mark