R compund vs "street" tires
10-04-2008 | 09:58 AM
#16
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Spot on Redline... I've been on R-comps for years and yet when I get a new car the first thing I do with it is keep / put street tires (PS2s) on it before heading to the track. I blow through a set of those to really learn the car as the streets will give you superior feedback and are more forgiving. When you can drive the wheels off the car - make it do everything you want, find yourself in trouble and automatically correct, then throw on a set of R-comps and get to the next level.
10-05-2008 | 06:44 PM
#17
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First let me say thanks to all that have taken the time to respond, even though this is a pretty well (over?) discussed topic
more sensitive, hmmmmmmmmm thanks for the tip.
i do use the REO50s as street only tires with good success.
good point, that will likely accelerate the learning curve.
i agree regarding the more forgiving, i'm learning that conventional wisdom = less sensitive to heat.
Well, if i stayed out on the track and drove within the tires new lower limits, i would certainly learn / improve.
excellent point, thanks.
i'm not really sure if you're responding to my question or another post in the thread.
in my initial post i said that i buy into the concept of learning on streets before moving to R's.
I didn't say anything about car setup, what do you mean by "what makes you think the learning process for setup is any different with an R-tire?"
I am working with a local suspension guru, (Jae Lee of Mirage International), to optimize my current setup.
He agrees with you???????? and me, that one should see the big picture and build the system with many variables accounted for rather than isolated instances or whims.
i do really like your point about driving the SLIP!.
right now that is both intimidating and a goal to learn.
cheers
Craig
rcomps are MORE sensitive to heat - they're just stickier to begin with so when they fall off from getting too warm they still have more grip.
<snip>
PS the a048 is sort of an in-between tire - its "Street" but pretty soft/aggressive. You might consider trying Bridgestone RE050 or RE01R (same compound different tread, the 01R has less void area), I found I could get them pretty hot / slide them around nicely without issues and they lasted FOREVER at the track - same with Michelin PS2s imo.
<snip>
PS the a048 is sort of an in-between tire - its "Street" but pretty soft/aggressive. You might consider trying Bridgestone RE050 or RE01R (same compound different tread, the 01R has less void area), I found I could get them pretty hot / slide them around nicely without issues and they lasted FOREVER at the track - same with Michelin PS2s imo.
i do use the REO50s as street only tires with good success.
excellent point, thanks.
Hmmmm....
Beyond all the good advice about why you should not progress to R-tires before you can really drive, what makes you think the learning process for setup is any different with an R-tire? You have a car that may not be performing optimally right now, and you want to change to something you know even less about? Bad process.
You need to make sure you have the tires you have now, and your suspension setup, optimized. You are learning this stuff on the cheap right now. Tearing up a set of Rs because you don't know how to set them up is pretty painful money-wise. They won't take the abuse of a poor setup like a street tire will.
Besides, you will never reach your full potential as a driver if all you can do is drive the grip of your car. You have to learn to drive the SLIP! Assuming you have everything setup properly, you are right where you need to be right now.
Beyond all the good advice about why you should not progress to R-tires before you can really drive, what makes you think the learning process for setup is any different with an R-tire? You have a car that may not be performing optimally right now, and you want to change to something you know even less about? Bad process.
You need to make sure you have the tires you have now, and your suspension setup, optimized. You are learning this stuff on the cheap right now. Tearing up a set of Rs because you don't know how to set them up is pretty painful money-wise. They won't take the abuse of a poor setup like a street tire will.
Besides, you will never reach your full potential as a driver if all you can do is drive the grip of your car. You have to learn to drive the SLIP! Assuming you have everything setup properly, you are right where you need to be right now.
in my initial post i said that i buy into the concept of learning on streets before moving to R's.
I didn't say anything about car setup, what do you mean by "what makes you think the learning process for setup is any different with an R-tire?"
I am working with a local suspension guru, (Jae Lee of Mirage International), to optimize my current setup.
He agrees with you???????? and me, that one should see the big picture and build the system with many variables accounted for rather than isolated instances or whims.
i do really like your point about driving the SLIP!.
right now that is both intimidating and a goal to learn.
cheers
Craig
10-05-2008 | 08:21 PM
#18
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craig, I run the 048s on my 993TT (and I liked them better than the ps2)...let me suggest that you'd prefer much lower hot psi...
I keep them down around 34-35 hot all around. they do get greasier in the 36+ range and have a tendency to allow too much wheelspin from the rears under acceleration (maybe because I've got too much hp!)
each tire is different and has it's own needs- I've used the bf goodrich, s-o2, pzero, ps2, p-corsa, mpsc N-specs, kumho v710, hoosier r6, r888, ra1 and they're all different. some like a little slip, some a lot, some none. some like lots of camber, some hate it.
taking notes is really essential to isolate what kind of wear or characteristics each of them has.
good way to think about your tires and chassis is that one can outdo the other and cause handling issues...for instance, if you start chunking your tires under normal pressures, then you're really driving over their limits-your wrench should be able to tell you if it's the tire compound, the shocks/springs, or the suspension geometry...or just straight up hamfisting.
sliding around is just good fun, and good learning! whatever you go with, take notes and if you can use data or coaching...it's the best for determining what setup works best for you and your car.
I keep them down around 34-35 hot all around. they do get greasier in the 36+ range and have a tendency to allow too much wheelspin from the rears under acceleration (maybe because I've got too much hp!)
each tire is different and has it's own needs- I've used the bf goodrich, s-o2, pzero, ps2, p-corsa, mpsc N-specs, kumho v710, hoosier r6, r888, ra1 and they're all different. some like a little slip, some a lot, some none. some like lots of camber, some hate it.
taking notes is really essential to isolate what kind of wear or characteristics each of them has.
good way to think about your tires and chassis is that one can outdo the other and cause handling issues...for instance, if you start chunking your tires under normal pressures, then you're really driving over their limits-your wrench should be able to tell you if it's the tire compound, the shocks/springs, or the suspension geometry...or just straight up hamfisting.
sliding around is just good fun, and good learning! whatever you go with, take notes and if you can use data or coaching...it's the best for determining what setup works best for you and your car.
10-06-2008 | 02:47 PM
#19
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There are street tires that perform better than some "R-compound" tires, and then there are some street tires that are terrible, etc.
For example, I had Pilot Sports on my M3 first and they were "adequate" and I thought "wow, these are good", but then I went to PS2s when they were invented and was like "WOW, these are fantastic and at another level". Then I've experienced what are called "R-comp" like the Yoko 48 and realized tires like the PS2 are at or above them in all respects. Then you have yet another category of tires that are "re-formulated" and you don't really know exactly what they are (like the Porsche approved 19" PSCup that is actually a hybrid).
I always felt that R-comp (real ones) are just plain dangerous until you have a well developed skill set. So much more feedback and therefore safety valve in the good street tires (ie: PS2) and yet they can also be driven very hard and very fast. No worry about cold and wet in a tire like the PS2 - great way to develop skills in less than optimal conditions. When you push in a real R-comp, you won't find them nearly as forgiving... The BMW clubs in my area actually will not allow R-comps on a car until the driver is in the intermediate level...
If the tires feel greasy, then they are probably over-inflated and / or maybe you have some alignment issues.
In summary - going from something like a KD to a PS2 or Neova is probably like going to what may perform like an R-comp in relative terms. Then to go to an RA1 / real PSCup is the next level. If it were me, I'd advance from the KD but not go all the way to R-comp formal - use up 1 set of PS2s / Neovas first and then you'll be ready...
For example, I had Pilot Sports on my M3 first and they were "adequate" and I thought "wow, these are good", but then I went to PS2s when they were invented and was like "WOW, these are fantastic and at another level". Then I've experienced what are called "R-comp" like the Yoko 48 and realized tires like the PS2 are at or above them in all respects. Then you have yet another category of tires that are "re-formulated" and you don't really know exactly what they are (like the Porsche approved 19" PSCup that is actually a hybrid).
I always felt that R-comp (real ones) are just plain dangerous until you have a well developed skill set. So much more feedback and therefore safety valve in the good street tires (ie: PS2) and yet they can also be driven very hard and very fast. No worry about cold and wet in a tire like the PS2 - great way to develop skills in less than optimal conditions. When you push in a real R-comp, you won't find them nearly as forgiving... The BMW clubs in my area actually will not allow R-comps on a car until the driver is in the intermediate level...
If the tires feel greasy, then they are probably over-inflated and / or maybe you have some alignment issues.
In summary - going from something like a KD to a PS2 or Neova is probably like going to what may perform like an R-comp in relative terms. Then to go to an RA1 / real PSCup is the next level. If it were me, I'd advance from the KD but not go all the way to R-comp formal - use up 1 set of PS2s / Neovas first and then you'll be ready...
I currently run stock Pilot Sport N spec's, and I was looking for that "next"
tire. Looks like the BFG KD's/PS's or Yoko Neova's are the next step, still giving feedback, but more grippy.
10-07-2008 | 09:50 AM
#20
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i'm not really sure if you're responding to my question or another post in the thread. in my initial post i said that i buy into the concept of learning on streets before moving to R's. I didn't say anything about car setup, what do you mean by "what makes you think the learning process for setup is any different with an R-tire?"
i do really like your point about driving the SLIP! Right now that is both intimidating and a goal to learn.
10-07-2008 | 10:17 AM
#21
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In my experience, Bridgestone RE050A or PolePosition are one to two notches above the PS2 when it comes to dry grip, predictability and wear. The RE01s are said to be even better, but do not have my sizes. I also used Falken Azenis RT615s, which are now also labled as Dunlop Direzza Sport Spec (or something like that), which were better than RE050s, but only for the first 15-20 mins; they are great choice for time trials though.
10-18-2008 | 05:38 PM
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Exactly. You didn't mention it, so I did. CJ answered most of the questions here. Part of good tire performance is setup. Pressures, camber, toe, driving style. It takes longer to see the results in some cases with street tires, but you are learning cheap and the info is there if you look and study. You'll see it much faster with Rs, but you'll be astounded at how expensive it can get trying to learn setup with tires that last 5-10 track days! When you cord a set of Rs in one day because you don't have the camber right, you'll sure remember this thread. In other words, there's more to learn than just driving right now!
It's ALWAYS intimidating, but what scares you now won't even phase you in a couple years if you stick with it.
It's ALWAYS intimidating, but what scares you now won't even phase you in a couple years if you stick with it.
as a guy named Chris Walrod says, "is this a great place, or what?"
best wishes
Craig
10-18-2008 | 05:41 PM
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i've got quite a stash of new stuff laying around the garage now waiting for me to get dirty and "improve" on factory designs.
November should be an interesting month.
cheers
Craig
