cgfen

ok
i've read many threads and seen the opinions that for newbies (me) doing DE type events, the consensus is improve driving skills before masking errors by moving to R comps.

makes sense to me, i agree.

BUT

another advantage R comps seem to have is less sensitivity to heat.
I've done a few Streets of Willows events where we run for up to 20 minutes per run group.

My goodyear KDs are pretty greasy / scary after ~ 15 minutes.
I just stop at that point rather than continue to scare myself.
One time i did not and spun tearing a bit of rubber from inside front tire.
Car = C4S, ~ 3500 pounds with me in it.

I guess my questions are,
1. Are most R Comps less heat sensitive than Street tires?
(compare kumho V710 vs Yoko AO48)

2. If any of you are running KDs or AO48s, how many minutes are your tires good for? ambient temp = 80 degrees, with a similar car weight.
hot tire pressures after a run rear = 38 - 39 front = 34 -35
rear feels greasier than the front after 15 minutes

thanks

Craig

HHHHHHMMMMMMMMMMMMM

now i feel a bit more stupid than usual.

AO48s ARE R comps

sigh

DanR

what pressures were you running your street tires at (hot?)

dmoffitt

rcomps are MORE sensitive to heat - they're just stickier to begin with so when they fall off from getting too warm they still have more grip.

they'll also wear out FAST AS HECK if you over-heat them, Cassandra forgot to drop her pressures the other day (they were cranked up for an autox in the wet since they wouldn't gain temp worth a darn) and basically melted/wore/tore the center of her fronts out because they got up to 48PSI hot for a few laps...

PS the a048 is sort of an in-between tire - its "Street" but pretty soft/aggressive. You might consider trying Bridgestone RE050 or RE01R (same compound different tread, the 01R has less void area), I found I could get them pretty hot / slide them around nicely without issues and they lasted FOREVER at the track - same with Michelin PS2s imo.

todinlaw

I started out doing DE's With R compound tires because they came with the car. Others on this forum have done some comparative testing, and found that for example PS 2 street tires are not that far off some good Rcomp tires in terms of grip and speed. So, Rather than focus allot of the tire, I would focus on getting seat time. Good drivers on street tires will blow away an average driver on R comps. the Street tire is a bit safer to learn on because they will have a tendency to warn you by noise and slip when they are at the limit where a sticky r comp will bust loose and send you off.

earlyapex

Greasy is not scary if you slow down and develop the skills to drive with a tire that has less than optimal grip. Stay with the street tires.

FTS

My view is that novice drivers should drive on street tires because they are more forgiving and less sensitive to heat. I used Azenis 615s that would get greasy after 15-20 mins of runs, but taking that into account and driving accordingly tought me few things as well. The other reason, is that novice drivers abuse tires much more than experienced ones, and it is better to abuse $400 tires than $1200 ones.

I started using R888s for the last couple of events and I am currently slower than I was on street tires, because I have not yet learned their limits and how to interpret the message coming back to me. However, I have already significantly utilized the outside edges of the tires as I don't have enough camber.

For DE purposes, I am not out there to break track records, so I wish I was back on street tires, just running, learning and having fun.

cgfen

good question.
i added that info to my original question.

front = 35psi
rear = 39psi

cheers
.

craig

racer

I've been on many sides of this issue and understand the popular arguments. In the end, you are an adult. Make a decision and stick with it. You want to run R comps, run em! They are just tires. They will be (potentially) part of your learning process.

va122

With street tires you are doing the work. With r-comps the car is doing more work. Think in terms of mechanical grip.

1AS

Aren't you improving your driving when the tires get greasy? Isn't that the point?
Personally, I think you maximize your skills by learning to adapt to what the car/tires will give you. AS

ausgeflippt951

You shouldn't be relying on tire wear to determine if you're running enough camber. You should do it properly: take tire temps at at least three places across the width of the tire. IR guns work great. Right after a hard hot lap, you need to pull into the pits. IMMEDIATELY (i.e., as fast as you possibly are able/allowed) have someone check your temps for you. It'll take too long to get out of the car and check them yourself.



Tires have an optimal operating temperature range. Essentially, tires are a mix of Styrene Butadiene (the rubber component), carbon blacks, and sulfur. In general, the more sulfur you add to the mix, the harder a tire. Then there's other crap in there but nobody knows exactly what because the tire companies won't tell us...

Street tires' optimal temperature range is significantly lower than racing tires. R comps are somewhere in between. Consequently, when you surpass that temp range, tires lose their ability to maintain grip. Street tires get greasy.



One other significant advantage to running street tires as a novice is the relative amount of feedback they provide. Street tires communicate so well with the driver (relative to R comps) that it is extremely easy to work up to the true limit of the tires.

While R comps have a higher overall grip level, they have a much smaller "gray area" -- the area between being in control and out of control. Learn the way of the street tire, and you'll become a better driver, faster.

ausgeflippt951

I just realized I came across as a bit of a ***** -- my apologies, certainly didn't mean to!

Bull

Just a little, tiny one though.

Seriously, I didn't read you that way.

RonCT

There are street tires that perform better than some "R-compound" tires, and then there are some street tires that are terrible, etc.

For example, I had Pilot Sports on my M3 first and they were "adequate" and I thought "wow, these are good", but then I went to PS2s when they were invented and was like "WOW, these are fantastic and at another level". Then I've experienced what are called "R-comp" like the Yoko 48 and realized tires like the PS2 are at or above them in all respects. Then you have yet another category of tires that are "re-formulated" and you don't really know exactly what they are (like the Porsche approved 19" PSCup that is actually a hybrid).

I always felt that R-comp (real ones) are just plain dangerous until you have a well developed skill set. So much more feedback and therefore safety valve in the good street tires (ie: PS2) and yet they can also be driven very hard and very fast. No worry about cold and wet in a tire like the PS2 - great way to develop skills in less than optimal conditions. When you push in a real R-comp, you won't find them nearly as forgiving... The BMW clubs in my area actually will not allow R-comps on a car until the driver is in the intermediate level...

If the tires feel greasy, then they are probably over-inflated and / or maybe you have some alignment issues.

In summary - going from something like a KD to a PS2 or Neova is probably like going to what may perform like an R-comp in relative terms. Then to go to an RA1 / real PSCup is the next level. If it were me, I'd advance from the KD but not go all the way to R-comp formal - use up 1 set of PS2s / Neovas first and then you'll be ready...

RedlineMan

Hmmmm....

Beyond all the good advice about why you should not progress to R-tires before you can really drive, what makes you think the learning process for setup is any different with an R-tire? You have a car that may not be performing optimally right now, and you want to change to something you know even less about? Bad process.

You need to make sure you have the tires you have now, and your suspension setup, optimized. You are learning this stuff on the cheap right now. Tearing up a set of Rs because you don't know how to set them up is pretty painful money-wise. They won't take the abuse of a poor setup like a street tire will.

Besides, you will never reach your full potential as a driver if all you can do is drive the grip of your car. You have to learn to drive the SLIP! Assuming you have everything setup properly, you are right where you need to be right now.