POC Race at Laguna Seca. Anderson wins and then DQ'ed for a misshift? YES- VIDEO!!!!
08-26-2008, 12:31 AM
#31
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
I understand the rules and the intent, but the fact that all that HP was behind mark has no bearing on the decision (a risky one) for the turbo to try to make a prayer pass to the right when it was clear to me at the beginning of the sequence that that door MAY close. Its not unlike any other turn. Its up to the passing driver to make sure its safe to get by. We see it all the time in our races with cars not much slower than this group, and a heck of a lot more cars!
I come up to lapped traffic every single time i visit Laguna seca for a race, and have to make a similar decision weather to pass on the outside or inside of a car fading to the left right in that same spot.
Mk
The entire point of 13/13 is to not take chances. races are never won at the start, and he had a car trying to get a jump right behind him, and all he needed to do was lift. You might say it would have caused a pile up, but it wouldnt. braking might have, but anderson didnt have a mechanical he was trying to find a gear. A lift and wait strategy, while having to go either behind Mark or wait until there was room would have been the wise thing to do.
Instead, a poor choice, got someone into trouble. Now, THAT is a 13/13. Sure it wasnt intentional, but it was a risky move that didnt pay off.
I have to disagree with the POC's view on this one and certainly hope that the 13-13 rule is used only for cars taking risky chances with their cars where they end up up hurting their own or someone elses' car.
mk
I come up to lapped traffic every single time i visit Laguna seca for a race, and have to make a similar decision weather to pass on the outside or inside of a car fading to the left right in that same spot.
Mk
The entire point of 13/13 is to not take chances. races are never won at the start, and he had a car trying to get a jump right behind him, and all he needed to do was lift. You might say it would have caused a pile up, but it wouldnt. braking might have, but anderson didnt have a mechanical he was trying to find a gear. A lift and wait strategy, while having to go either behind Mark or wait until there was room would have been the wise thing to do.
Instead, a poor choice, got someone into trouble. Now, THAT is a 13/13. Sure it wasnt intentional, but it was a risky move that didnt pay off.
I have to disagree with the POC's view on this one and certainly hope that the 13-13 rule is used only for cars taking risky chances with their cars where they end up up hurting their own or someone elses' car.
mk
Mark K. the POC's rules regarding any 13/13 incident are centered in preventing accidents and discouraging reckless racing . You may think they're too severe, but eratic, unsafe racing is too common in many venues and the POC's position is very clear and understood by all members.
Mark Anderson is a truly gifted and safe driver. I've followed him around many tracks and I've never seen him make an unsafe move. Obviously he had no intention in forcing the 993 TT off left into the wall. The track veers left as you crest the hill and Mark was simply following the path of travel once he got the car going in 3rd. gear. But as others have noted, he left little racing room on the left and that TT car was coming full throttle trying to avoid getting killed by the cars behind him. Mark had the pole, there were 34 other cars coming up real fast. The first 3 rows were full of 600+ HP turbos followed by 400 HP cup cars and everyone was throttle up. It was a truly unfortunate incident and our Competition Committee reviewed everyone's video before making their ruling.
I was directly behind the yellow car filming and went to the center. I believe that's me going thru at the end of the video. I couldn't see what happened 2 rows up, but I saw the TT car bounce off the wall to the left and the water's parted so up the middle I went. It could have been a real CF with 35 cars in the race The TT was badly damaged, a 6-cup went off hard right into the kitty litter and was out of the race, but everyone else managed else to get thru OK. We went full-course yellow for a few laps until the carnage was cleared and then back to racing . Mark continued on to win the race with his new motor...
Mark Anderson is a truly gifted and safe driver. I've followed him around many tracks and I've never seen him make an unsafe move. Obviously he had no intention in forcing the 993 TT off left into the wall. The track veers left as you crest the hill and Mark was simply following the path of travel once he got the car going in 3rd. gear. But as others have noted, he left little racing room on the left and that TT car was coming full throttle trying to avoid getting killed by the cars behind him. Mark had the pole, there were 34 other cars coming up real fast. The first 3 rows were full of 600+ HP turbos followed by 400 HP cup cars and everyone was throttle up. It was a truly unfortunate incident and our Competition Committee reviewed everyone's video before making their ruling.
I was directly behind the yellow car filming and went to the center. I believe that's me going thru at the end of the video. I couldn't see what happened 2 rows up, but I saw the TT car bounce off the wall to the left and the water's parted so up the middle I went. It could have been a real CF with 35 cars in the race The TT was badly damaged, a 6-cup went off hard right into the kitty litter and was out of the race, but everyone else managed else to get thru OK. We went full-course yellow for a few laps until the carnage was cleared and then back to racing . Mark continued on to win the race with his new motor...
08-26-2008, 01:16 AM
#33
Nordschleife Master
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Vacuuming Cal Speedway
Posts: 7,306
Likes: 0
Received 7 Likes
on
5 Posts
Mark you're appplying the the rules of engagement for passing or lapping to what happened at the start of this race. The TT wasn't trying to make a pass he was just trying to avoid crashing into Anderson's rear end which was his only other option. No one expects the pole sitter to miss a shift and go dead on the track. I believe any racer would have swerved too avoid imminent contact, I know I did. It was a late flag, we were almost to the bridge where the track narrows. Had the flag dropped earlier there would have been more room to maneuver and probably a different outcome. That's unfortunate for Mark, but the TT wasn't at fault here.
BTW, would that have made you less critical of the POC rules if Mark had been run over? He still would have received the 13 as he would have in PCA and I suspect in SCCA?
BTW, would that have made you less critical of the POC rules if Mark had been run over? He still would have received the 13 as he would have in PCA and I suspect in SCCA?
I understand the rules and the intent, but the fact that all that HP was behind mark has no bearing on the decision (a risky one) for the turbo to try to make a prayer pass to the right when it was clear to me at the beginning of the sequence that that door MAY close. Its not unlike any other turn. Its up to the passing driver to make sure its safe to get by. We see it all the time in our races with cars not much slower than this group, and a heck of a lot more cars!
I come up to lapped traffic every single time i visit Laguna seca for a race, and have to make a similar decision weather to pass on the outside or inside of a car fading to the left right in that same spot.
Mk
The entire point of 13/13 is to not take chances. races are never won at the start, and he had a car trying to get a jump right behind him, and all he needed to do was lift. You might say it would have caused a pile up, but it wouldnt. braking might have, but anderson didnt have a mechanical he was trying to find a gear. A lift and wait strategy, while having to go either behind Mark or wait until there was room would have been the wise thing to do.
Instead, a poor choice, got someone into trouble. Now, THAT is a 13/13. Sure it wasnt intentional, but it was a risky move that didnt pay off.
I have to disagree with the POC's view on this one and certainly hope that the 13-13 rule is used only for cars taking risky chances with their cars where they end up up hurting their own or someone elses' car.
mk
I come up to lapped traffic every single time i visit Laguna seca for a race, and have to make a similar decision weather to pass on the outside or inside of a car fading to the left right in that same spot.
Mk
The entire point of 13/13 is to not take chances. races are never won at the start, and he had a car trying to get a jump right behind him, and all he needed to do was lift. You might say it would have caused a pile up, but it wouldnt. braking might have, but anderson didnt have a mechanical he was trying to find a gear. A lift and wait strategy, while having to go either behind Mark or wait until there was room would have been the wise thing to do.
Instead, a poor choice, got someone into trouble. Now, THAT is a 13/13. Sure it wasnt intentional, but it was a risky move that didnt pay off.
I have to disagree with the POC's view on this one and certainly hope that the 13-13 rule is used only for cars taking risky chances with their cars where they end up up hurting their own or someone elses' car.
mk
08-26-2008, 02:19 AM
#34
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
I dont know about you, but ive been behind mis-shifted cars before. Its just slight coasting. Very easy to just lift, slighly brake and tailgate you must not drive in LA too much! 
Its unless a car breaks, an lift is a gradual slow down. slowing down, usually gives the guy behind you a block, where he cant go around you either. In that case, i would have just tail gated Mark and then followed him down the hill when he got it in gear, or passed on the left. At least then, he could only push you into the track on lane where you wouldnt be able to pass under POC rules, but at least there wouldnt be a wall there to get hit by if you got pinched.
mk
Its unless a car breaks, an lift is a gradual slow down. slowing down, usually gives the guy behind you a block, where he cant go around you either. In that case, i would have just tail gated Mark and then followed him down the hill when he got it in gear, or passed on the left. At least then, he could only push you into the track on lane where you wouldnt be able to pass under POC rules, but at least there wouldnt be a wall there to get hit by if you got pinched.
mk
Mark you're appplying the the rules of engagement for passing or lapping to what happened at the start of this race. The TT wasn't trying to make a pass he was just trying to avoid crashing into Anderson's rear end which was his only other option. No one expects the pole sitter to miss a shift and go dead on the track. I believe any racer would have swerved too avoid imminent contact, I know I did. It was a late flag, we were almost to the bridge where the track narrows. Had the flag dropped earlier there would have been more room to maneuver and probably a different outcome. That's unfortunate for Mark, but the TT wasn't at fault here.
BTW, would that have made you less critical of the POC rules if Mark had been run over? He still would have received the 13 as he would have in PCA and I suspect in SCCA?
BTW, would that have made you less critical of the POC rules if Mark had been run over? He still would have received the 13 as he would have in PCA and I suspect in SCCA?
08-26-2008, 02:27 AM
#35
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
yeah, i just watched it again for the 20th time. I think you are right. I would have vered to the left as well and try and attempt to make it. I think the starter should get the 13/13 Nothing ever good happens with a late start at Laguna! With an earlier green, things shake out a bit sooner.
One of those bad situations where contact can happen. I dont think it should be a 13/13 though. Certainly not grounds for sending someone home for the second day of racing.
mk
Nothing ever good happens with a late start at Laguna! With an earlier green, things shake out a bit sooner.One of those bad situations where contact can happen. I dont think it should be a 13/13 though. Certainly not grounds for sending someone home for the second day of racing.
mk
08-26-2008, 09:30 AM
#37
Administrator - "Tyson"
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
08-26-2008, 10:46 AM
#38
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
One interesting observation about that race - Mark A. passed Drew W.'s cup car under the full course yellow in turn 4 to take second place... nobody but the spectators seemed to notice, as he never got a black flag for that.
08-26-2008, 11:16 AM
#39
Nordschleife Master
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Vacuuming Cal Speedway
Posts: 7,306
Likes: 0
Received 7 Likes
on
5 Posts
When the flag drops or waves. The starter could have, and should have waved off the field and made us come around again IMHO. Because the field was so large I think he was waiting for everyone to get on the front straight...
08-26-2008, 11:18 AM
#40
Nordschleife Master
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Vacuuming Cal Speedway
Posts: 7,306
Likes: 0
Received 7 Likes
on
5 Posts
Until you see more than two videos, don't you think you make a premature judgement? I think the POC does a fantastic job keeping things safe and analyzing things properly.
One interesting observation about that race - Mark A. passed Drew W.'s cup car under the full course yellow in turn 4 to take second place... nobody but the spectators seemed to notice, as he never got a black flag for that.
One interesting observation about that race - Mark A. passed Drew W.'s cup car under the full course yellow in turn 4 to take second place... nobody but the spectators seemed to notice, as he never got a black flag for that.
I believe he gave it back before the restart....
08-26-2008, 01:38 PM
#41
Rennlist Member
PRC doesn't use a 13/13. I got up to the track Sunday in time to watch/help with one guy in the race. About 30 cars and zero problems. Can't remember anything in recent memory that's filtered down to me about car to car contact. Never had any issues when I was out there, either (in what seems like a distant memory now).
08-26-2008, 03:22 PM
#42
Race Director
That is true. The thing is that Mark slowed a bit and with cars going on both sides it was really tough. One could argue that the white car was being to aggressive in trying pass there. Mark did not slow that much and those guy were on him hard trying to make tight pass work anyway.
Actually it feels similar to a situation I had at PIR a few months back. We also have starts with walls on the edge of both sides of the track. In my case 2 rows infront and M3 dies just after the green. We had enough space and cars started parting, but the car front of me was blinded and pinched me to the wall on the inside. Lucky for both of us it was just a light touch, but he was avoiding with no where to go and I had no space to give. 13 could have been tossed around there, but we just talked about it afterward. The M3 guy aplogized and the driver that hit me did not even know I was there. I had no ill feelings torward and of them. Hey we race and stuff happens. If you want to play it safe on the start just hang back. If you really want to race car you will pounce when the chance comes. Sometimes that is a problem.
08-26-2008, 05:54 PM
#43
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Ken is correct that PRC does not have a 13/13 but we try very hard to ensure safe racing without contact. Most of our races are contact free and we try to keep it that way. One way we do it is a rule that there is no 3-wide at the start or through the first turn (unless a car becomes disabled). After the first turn you can go 3-wide on a straight but never in turns. The missed shift would have been a gray area for us to allow three wide to pass.
08-26-2008, 06:22 PM
#44
Race Director
Spoke to a friend who club races with the Swedish Porsche club today and they have a 15 second time penalty added to the results to all cars that have contact with another car.
08-26-2008, 09:04 PM
#45
I guess it's time for me to speak up.
The video is my video.
I was asked for a copy and didn't realize it would be passed on to Mark K. and posted on Rennlist for everyone to debate POC's judgement, which is something that I don't think members of POC should do outside our special Club.
The POC Competition Committee does a great and deliberative job in evaluating all available information which usually includes more than one tape--as was true in this case.
My opinion is that our Comp. Comm. does an excellent job in evaluating each situation and I don't think you could have a fairer person than Steve Parker heading the Committee!!
If a member disagrees with the findings of the Comp. Comm. there is an appeal process that can be pursued. One's first reaction when on the receiving end of something like this is almost always denial, followed by acceptance. I know from personal experience!
Now, as Toby Keith says, "let's talk about me"!!
Could I have given Mark Anderson a run for the money on Sunday?
Saturday was really unfortunate because I was looking forward to racing against Mark on Sunday--a great guy --a great competitor and a great car!!
I guess we'll have to wait until we meet again.
The video is my video.
I was asked for a copy and didn't realize it would be passed on to Mark K. and posted on Rennlist for everyone to debate POC's judgement, which is something that I don't think members of POC should do outside our special Club.
The POC Competition Committee does a great and deliberative job in evaluating all available information which usually includes more than one tape--as was true in this case.
My opinion is that our Comp. Comm. does an excellent job in evaluating each situation and I don't think you could have a fairer person than Steve Parker heading the Committee!!
If a member disagrees with the findings of the Comp. Comm. there is an appeal process that can be pursued. One's first reaction when on the receiving end of something like this is almost always denial, followed by acceptance. I know from personal experience!
Now, as Toby Keith says, "let's talk about me"!!
Could I have given Mark Anderson a run for the money on Sunday?
Saturday was really unfortunate because I was looking forward to racing against Mark on Sunday--a great guy --a great competitor and a great car!!
I guess we'll have to wait until we meet again.