RickBetterley

Smart mouth - I was going to boast about the relative talents of our respective baseball teams, then I remembered you are finally respectable.
Oh, wait -way more than respectable

RickBetterley

Lots of very interesting posts here, including some good links. I will try to learn more and will post as I do.
Thank you, everyone, for your sympathy and contributions.

Brian A.

Rick,

You may want to reconsider your signature (ie: Risk Aversion Consultant) or risk it being interpreted as a commercial post.

NCporsche

Thanks for the link. We are going to remove all signage from the truck and horse trailer. These trips to the mountains ARE a "business expense" due to we are training horses (3 year olds) for trail riding and for resale.

Matt Romanowski

Under 26k does not require a CDL.

Also, remember that CDL licenses put additional restrictions on what you can do like only drive so many hours in a day, you must keep a log, and significantly lower BAL limits (typically .02) at all times....

Professor Helmüt Tester

In the US, right ? Not in Canada, right ? The guy was citing USDOT regulations, not specific state regulations, right ?

Wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong. You are not a CMV (although having signage on the side of the trailer makes for some ambiguity...GET RID OF IT NOW. That's why I've always had an unmarked trailer...you should too).

The DMV guy is an idiot. Untrained or mistrained or uninformed.

Here's a re-post of something I wrote up a few years ago on one of the racing boards I inhabit:


One of my 'side duties' at work is dealing with regulatory/licensing stuff for our truck fleet, so I've had occasion to review USDOT and FMCSA regulations. Obviously, I'm interested in how they affect ME, 'Joe Racer', in addition to ME, "Joe WorkingAzzhole".

There is specific language in USDOT regulations that ALLOWS for the use of CMVs (commercial motor vehicles) for the transportation of personal property for personal and recreational uses and DO NOT require compliance with USDOT/FMCSA CMV regulations. It's written in plain language, big enough letters and small enough words so even the most dim-witted state regulatory weenie can understand it.

FMCSA's own published guidelines for interpretation of its own regulations specifically state that unless income generated by such 'personal/recreational' use is TAXABLE (i.e. "1099"), that that use is exempt from USDOT/FMCSA CMV regulatory compliance.

I carry a copy of this stuff in my truck, printed from the Federal Register and FMCSA's own publications.
Why do I carry copy, even though I only have a dually towing a 28' tag ? "Be prepared". Had a lengthy discussion with a State Trooper in a "rest area" who thought that I needed to comply with CMV regulations. He wasn't quite prepared to have an informed owner-driver (me) pull out chapter and verse of USDOT & FMCSA regulations. Cops don't like being told they're wrong, or that they're mis-informed/mis-trained. After about 10 minutes, he realized that he'd just look stupid in front of a judge, and that I had the time, resources and willingness to do just that. We amicably parted company, with no paperwork issued. YMMV.

So...what is my basis for all of this ? Read on:

CFR 390.3.f.3 (web link to CFR - Code of Federal Regulations - below)

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text...1.2.33&idno=49

Note big "exemption", here:

"(3) The occasional transportation of personal property by individuals not for compensation nor in the furtherance of a commercial enterprise;"

Then go read the FMCSA's own published "Interpretation for Part 390", which can be found here:

http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regul...738&guidence=Y

...and scroll down to "Question 21", which states:

"Question 21: Does the exemption in §390.3(f)(3) for the "occasional transportation of personal property by individuals not for compensation nor in the furtherance of a commercial enterprise" apply to persons who occasionally use CMVs to transport cars, boats, horses, etc., to races, tournaments, shows or similar events, even if prize money is offered at these events?"

...then just below that is the FMCSA's "guidance" for how their own regulations should be interpreted:

"Guidance: The exemption would apply to this kind of transportation, provided: (1) The underlying activities are not undertaken for profit, i.e., (a) prize money is declared as ordinary income for tax purposes, and (b) the cost of the underlying activities is not deducted as a business expense for tax purposes; and, where relevant; (2) corporate sponsorship is not involved. Drivers must confer with their State of licensure to determine the licensing provisions to which they are subject."

Soooo....the enacted regulations have carved out a specific exemption for what most of us are doing. It is clear, and in plain language. My 'ambiguity detector' didn't go off at all. Why is it that various States have regulatory agencies that have unique and novel interpretations of these regulations ??? Regulators like to 'regulate', even if legislatures or governing agencies haven't given them authority to regulate. That's why I get cranked off whenever a cop tries to tell me that USDOT/FMCSA regulations apply to my rig.

You need to check with the state where you've got your vehicle registered to find out what's applicable in State regulations. Beware - it seems that most of the people who you'd normally expect to know the answers to these questions are also undertrained or uninformed. Read the regulations yourself...that's the only way to know for sure.

Does it sound like I'm ranting ? Fvcking ********. They should read the law.

MTosi

No wonder your story rang a bell, thats the exact opening from the NKN article. By some miracle I found the correct issue over a year old (june 07') amongst the collection of (at least 3 years of each all piled up in no particular order) Pano, Excellence, Grassroots, Roundel, Bimmer, other NKN's, Skiing, Motorsport, Christo, Pittalk, Boston Bimmer, Northeaster and lots more (and people wonder how I know all this useless info).... It's a full 5 pages on the subject, I'll have to leave it at the shop or drop it off sometime.

Chaos

You could have offered to take the "Polish Breathlizer" and he may have let you off

PogueMoHone

And I thought I had a trailer solution!

Back to square one.

Tom W

So, my take-away message is - This could be an issue if you get stopped by a cop and the truck and/or trailer have a commercial registration. However, if both truck and trailer clearly are registered to an individual, just because you might have a decal on your trailer, you are clearly not a CMV and all this is moot. Have I got it right, or should I have a concern too?

F350Lawman

I have PASSENGER plates on my CC dually in NY because it is registered as a Suburban..saves alot of BS....drive anywhere, park anywhere, lower tolls, no stops, no ins. issues, etc. Normally any PU over 5000lbs needs Commercial plates in NY.

PM me for specifics of how a truck can be made to qualify as a Suburban (NY at least).

RickBetterley

Now I'm getting paranoid.

DogInBlack

Thanks Professor, I after some homework I am in agreement with you- especially the part about them being aholes.

I think the fellow I talked with on the phone, although polite, decided WTF get a USDOT # and CDL because that is the easy answer. Well you can't get a CDL for fun- only if you get paid to drive. I don't get paid to drive or haul my gear to the track. If I did, and believe me, I'd love to have a line item with racing as ordinary income on my tax return, I'd follow all this crap. But this is my hobby. I guess I'll have a bunch of pages printed out in my glove box.

The more I read I believe that you have it right. I am going to proceed as such.

FWIW, I weighed my truck, trailer, and car to know the balance was right. There is no way your dually weighs less than 5000lbs. I have a GMC 2500 diesel Crew Cab short box, heavy front bumper, and a half loaded tool box and it weighs 7340 with half fuel.

Darth Coupe

Wow, so now whenever I am trailering in and out of OH I have to go 55??? I have a commercial trailer on my registration due to the length or weight, forget which at the moment and have been lucky I suppose for the weigh stations. I tow with my personal truck and there are no commercial signs and it is open with no signs on the cars. It is not like I do 90 to the track...

Then again my theory is that here in OH they are taking in less money for speeding tickets and need other means to boost revenue. Hey, if they want that, pull over the guy/gal going the speed limit in the left lane with no one in the lane to his/her right....

Professor Helmüt Tester

2nd link in my rant now fixed...if you don't feel like scrolling back, scroll down to "Question 21":

http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regul...738&guidence=Y