After a full year of DEing.......
07-04-2008 | 06:00 PM
#151
RIP
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,433
Likes: 2
From: Austin, TX
You mean like this?......
start it at 3:40 for the T1 "off" then jump to 5:14 for a visit with "Uncle Bill"......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDDHBR6-300
start it at 3:40 for the T1 "off" then jump to 5:14 for a visit with "Uncle Bill"......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDDHBR6-300
07-04-2008 | 06:03 PM
#152
Nordschleife Master
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 6,682
Likes: 845
From: About to pass you...
Here is one big difference that seems to have been overlooked in this thread. In a DE an accident, of some sort, is usually limited to one car. In a Race - it is normally 2 or more. Sometimes lots more.
*****************
Those that don't want to understand there are MAJOR differences between DEs and Races normally tend to be racers. In a DE - we do not teach "a racing line" instead we teach you how to use the track in a way to suit your car while you are learning control. Ah, yes, what is a DE about - it is learning how to handle your car in high speeds without having a police car stopping you and writing a ticket. What is a race - taking the experiences you have and putting them into a competitive mode. There is no competition at a DE. There are no prizes -- you are asked to leave your egos at home.
There are many differences - but I think my previous paragraph sums it up.
As you know there are Racer Diehards - but you may not be aware, that sometimes, a person becomes a DE Diehard. It may be before racing enters the blood -- or afterward when they write -- "Good Bye To Club Racing -- for now."
Many think they are the same - but they aren't. They tend to learn that during their very first race.
*****************
Those that don't want to understand there are MAJOR differences between DEs and Races normally tend to be racers. In a DE - we do not teach "a racing line" instead we teach you how to use the track in a way to suit your car while you are learning control. Ah, yes, what is a DE about - it is learning how to handle your car in high speeds without having a police car stopping you and writing a ticket. What is a race - taking the experiences you have and putting them into a competitive mode. There is no competition at a DE. There are no prizes -- you are asked to leave your egos at home.
There are many differences - but I think my previous paragraph sums it up.
As you know there are Racer Diehards - but you may not be aware, that sometimes, a person becomes a DE Diehard. It may be before racing enters the blood -- or afterward when they write -- "Good Bye To Club Racing -- for now."
Many think they are the same - but they aren't. They tend to learn that during their very first race.
Second, I have never met a racer that doesn't understand the difference between DE and racing, but I have met lots of DE only people that will call what they do "racing". I have found that the there are far bigger egos at a DE than at a race. You can't hide from the time sheets, but you can always blame someone's speed on the car at a DE. And how many times have you seen a brutal slow instructor in red...that's ego.
07-04-2008 | 06:30 PM
#153
Pro
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 627
Likes: 0
From: Bluffton, SC
Colin, Where are you getting your statistics? I'd love to see where this 60 single/40 multi comes from. I am only going by the club races I have had the word from in the last two years - like the big pile up on CMP a year or two ago that caused more than $25,000 in damages to the track - or the three cars at Barber - and their big bill - or a "girl" taking out two racers in Sebring. These are the incidents that make the news.
I have met a few DE folks who will say they drive better than racers - faster, smoother - but down her in the South they are few and far between. Our DEs get jumpy when a racer shows up.
Our DEs sometimes can be a Catch-22. You can't get yourself into a race till you can be signed off by a DE Chief Instructor. All that while, a few wannabe racers make the lives of DE folks very uncomfortable - we all look forward to the day they leave us to go racing fulltime. But honestly, this doesn't happen often.
Our DEs are for DE folk. You come play with us - that is what we expect from you.
As far as Red Instructors slow - I don't know what regions you have run with, but again, down South that hasn't been the case. We have instructors with slow cars and we put them in white. (And it keeps the white run group healthy with good manners.)
I can remember asking Pete Tremper once (and even started a thread here somewhere about it) for a PCA Racing School. Get the wannabes out of the DEs once they learn how to control their car - and then give them live practice, etc. before an actual race - I think it would keep peace at the DEs - and it would take out that "Catch-22" I was mentioning.
I have met a few DE folks who will say they drive better than racers - faster, smoother - but down her in the South they are few and far between. Our DEs get jumpy when a racer shows up.
Our DEs sometimes can be a Catch-22. You can't get yourself into a race till you can be signed off by a DE Chief Instructor. All that while, a few wannabe racers make the lives of DE folks very uncomfortable - we all look forward to the day they leave us to go racing fulltime. But honestly, this doesn't happen often.
Our DEs are for DE folk. You come play with us - that is what we expect from you.
As far as Red Instructors slow - I don't know what regions you have run with, but again, down South that hasn't been the case. We have instructors with slow cars and we put them in white. (And it keeps the white run group healthy with good manners.)
I can remember asking Pete Tremper once (and even started a thread here somewhere about it) for a PCA Racing School. Get the wannabes out of the DEs once they learn how to control their car - and then give them live practice, etc. before an actual race - I think it would keep peace at the DEs - and it would take out that "Catch-22" I was mentioning.
07-04-2008 | 06:56 PM
#154
Nordschleife Master
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 6,682
Likes: 845
From: About to pass you...
Colin, Where are you getting your statistics? I'd love to see where this 60 single/40 multi comes from. I am only going by the club races I have had the word from in the last two years - like the big pile up on CMP a year or two ago that caused more than $25,000 in damages to the track - or the three cars at Barber - and their big bill - or a "girl" taking out two racers in Sebring. These are the incidents that make the news.
I applaud your region if there are instructors that run in white consistently. Up in the NE, I have never seen that happen.
Btw, I was directly behind the "big one" at this year's club race. Full course red for 35 mins. There were only 2 cars involved in that incident: 1 car destroyed, and the other with very minor damage. I did not hear about any "girl" taking out 2 racers at the event or afterwards.
07-04-2008 | 08:20 PM
#155
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From: MA
Okay, I'll bite. Do the upper run group 944/early 911 drivers get jumpy when a GT3 shows up? If the closing speeds a 30+ mph how does that work for them? Generally speaking, what is it exactly that racers do that makes them more nervous than what a 650HP hod rodded TT couldn't accomplish? Is it they're too fast, too close on, too aggressive, what? Or is it largely that the education process has utterly failed these drivers who are 'jumpy' and they've simply been promoted into a run group they really shouldn't yet be in?
I really havent a clue as to who these people are that you are referring to or what it is you expect. Honest. For me, when I came up, DE, at least in the upper run groups, was about pursing a level of mastery in the arts of consistently driving a car on the limit. Thats not racing and it is and remains, AFAIC, a completely legitimate interpretation that I'm guessing is not what you mean by "we expect". So no offense, maybe I've got you all wrong, but the tone of your use of the terms 'jumpy', 'play' and 'DE people' is more reflective of the type of environment I would expect in green, blue or yellow run groups and suggests to me exactly the sort of dumbing the program down to the lowest common denominator that I'm referring to.
Our DEs are for DE folk. You come play with us - that is what we expect from you.
07-04-2008 | 08:47 PM
#156
Pro
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 627
Likes: 0
From: Bluffton, SC
RJay,
We run an all marque DE. And when folks show up learning how to get the most control from their cars at high speeds - they have fun. Our last DE brought a Carerra GT (yep, $410,000) out to be with us and no one was jumpy - we enjoyed the person and the car.
By jumpy, I mean that when a wannabe racer comes in - they want to go from Green to Racing in 30 seconds or less. They make the DE Team cringe.
The DE program in PCA eyes - has been the stepping stone to club racing. That is not the necessarily the case with other clubs or with folks that come out to the track to enjoy DEs.
Please do not let my vocabulary throw you off - I've been accused of being like a crossword puzzle many-a-time. And if you need further explanation, I can always rephrase. Maybe then you'll see that we may actually be saying the same thing with different words. Or - since we cannot hear each other's intonations and/or faces -- maybe not.
It's all in the fun of the sport - and getting this up in pages - yes?
***********
Colin - Does PCA keep actual records of the accidents? I'm in the SE and the accidents that have taken place at Sebring and CMP have been multi-car. I'm not referring to professional racing - and I haven't heard many at NASA -- but the news that dribbles down to us from PCA in general - has made it seem like DEs have single car accidents and club racing is multiple. Be nice to see true facts on it. I've never been one for statistics.
We run an all marque DE. And when folks show up learning how to get the most control from their cars at high speeds - they have fun. Our last DE brought a Carerra GT (yep, $410,000) out to be with us and no one was jumpy - we enjoyed the person and the car.
By jumpy, I mean that when a wannabe racer comes in - they want to go from Green to Racing in 30 seconds or less. They make the DE Team cringe.
The DE program in PCA eyes - has been the stepping stone to club racing. That is not the necessarily the case with other clubs or with folks that come out to the track to enjoy DEs.
Please do not let my vocabulary throw you off - I've been accused of being like a crossword puzzle many-a-time. And if you need further explanation, I can always rephrase. Maybe then you'll see that we may actually be saying the same thing with different words. Or - since we cannot hear each other's intonations and/or faces -- maybe not.
It's all in the fun of the sport - and getting this up in pages - yes?
***********
Colin - Does PCA keep actual records of the accidents? I'm in the SE and the accidents that have taken place at Sebring and CMP have been multi-car. I'm not referring to professional racing - and I haven't heard many at NASA -- but the news that dribbles down to us from PCA in general - has made it seem like DEs have single car accidents and club racing is multiple. Be nice to see true facts on it. I've never been one for statistics.
07-04-2008 | 09:15 PM
#159
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 23,303
Likes: 500
From: Baltimore, MD
Here is one big difference that seems to have been overlooked in this thread. In a DE an accident, of some sort, is usually limited to one car. In a Race - it is normally 2 or more. Sometimes lots more.
*****************
Those that don't want to understand there are MAJOR differences between DEs and Races normally tend to be racers. In a DE - we do not teach "a racing line" instead we teach you how to use the track in a way to suit your car while you are learning control. Ah, yes, what is a DE about - it is learning how to handle your car in high speeds without having a police car stopping you and writing a ticket. What is a race - taking the experiences you have and putting them into a competitive mode. There is no competition at a DE. There are no prizes -- you are asked to leave your egos at home.
There are many differences - but I think my previous paragraph sums it up.
As you know there are Racer Diehards - but you may not be aware, that sometimes, a person becomes a DE Diehard. It may be before racing enters the blood -- or afterward when they write -- "Good Bye To Club Racing -- for now."
Many think they are the same - but they aren't. They tend to learn that during their very first race.
*****************
Those that don't want to understand there are MAJOR differences between DEs and Races normally tend to be racers. In a DE - we do not teach "a racing line" instead we teach you how to use the track in a way to suit your car while you are learning control. Ah, yes, what is a DE about - it is learning how to handle your car in high speeds without having a police car stopping you and writing a ticket. What is a race - taking the experiences you have and putting them into a competitive mode. There is no competition at a DE. There are no prizes -- you are asked to leave your egos at home.
There are many differences - but I think my previous paragraph sums it up.
As you know there are Racer Diehards - but you may not be aware, that sometimes, a person becomes a DE Diehard. It may be before racing enters the blood -- or afterward when they write -- "Good Bye To Club Racing -- for now."
Many think they are the same - but they aren't. They tend to learn that during their very first race.
Colin, Where are you getting your statistics? I'd love to see where this 60 single/40 multi comes from. I am only going by the club races I have had the word from in the last two years - like the big pile up on CMP a year or two ago that caused more than $25,000 in damages to the track - or the three cars at Barber - and their big bill - or a "girl" taking out two racers in Sebring. These are the incidents that make the news.
I have met a few DE folks who will say they drive better than racers - faster, smoother - but down her in the South they are few and far between. Our DEs get jumpy when a racer shows up.
Our DEs sometimes can be a Catch-22. You can't get yourself into a race till you can be signed off by a DE Chief Instructor. All that while, a few wannabe racers make the lives of DE folks very uncomfortable - we all look forward to the day they leave us to go racing fulltime. But honestly, this doesn't happen often.
Our DEs are for DE folk. You come play with us - that is what we expect from you.
As far as Red Instructors slow - I don't know what regions you have run with, but again, down South that hasn't been the case. We have instructors with slow cars and we put them in white. (And it keeps the white run group healthy with good manners.)
I can remember asking Pete Tremper once (and even started a thread here somewhere about it) for a PCA Racing School. Get the wannabes out of the DEs once they learn how to control their car - and then give them live practice, etc. before an actual race - I think it would keep peace at the DEs - and it would take out that "Catch-22" I was mentioning.
I have met a few DE folks who will say they drive better than racers - faster, smoother - but down her in the South they are few and far between. Our DEs get jumpy when a racer shows up.
Our DEs sometimes can be a Catch-22. You can't get yourself into a race till you can be signed off by a DE Chief Instructor. All that while, a few wannabe racers make the lives of DE folks very uncomfortable - we all look forward to the day they leave us to go racing fulltime. But honestly, this doesn't happen often.
Our DEs are for DE folk. You come play with us - that is what we expect from you.
As far as Red Instructors slow - I don't know what regions you have run with, but again, down South that hasn't been the case. We have instructors with slow cars and we put them in white. (And it keeps the white run group healthy with good manners.)
I can remember asking Pete Tremper once (and even started a thread here somewhere about it) for a PCA Racing School. Get the wannabes out of the DEs once they learn how to control their car - and then give them live practice, etc. before an actual race - I think it would keep peace at the DEs - and it would take out that "Catch-22" I was mentioning.
RJay,
We run an all marque DE. And when folks show up learning how to get the most control from their cars at high speeds - they have fun. Our last DE brought a Carerra GT (yep, $410,000) out to be with us and no one was jumpy - we enjoyed the person and the car.
By jumpy, I mean that when a wannabe racer comes in - they want to go from Green to Racing in 30 seconds or less. They make the DE Team cringe.
The DE program in PCA eyes - has been the stepping stone to club racing. That is not the necessarily the case with other clubs or with folks that come out to the track to enjoy DEs.
Please do not let my vocabulary throw you off - I've been accused of being like a crossword puzzle many-a-time. And if you need further explanation, I can always rephrase. Maybe then you'll see that we may actually be saying the same thing with different words. Or - since we cannot hear each other's intonations and/or faces -- maybe not.
It's all in the fun of the sport - and getting this up in pages - yes?
***********
Colin - Does PCA keep actual records of the accidents? I'm in the SE and the accidents that have taken place at Sebring and CMP have been multi-car. I'm not referring to professional racing - and I haven't heard many at NASA -- but the news that dribbles down to us from PCA in general - has made it seem like DEs have single car accidents and club racing is multiple. Be nice to see true facts on it. I've never been one for statistics.
We run an all marque DE. And when folks show up learning how to get the most control from their cars at high speeds - they have fun. Our last DE brought a Carerra GT (yep, $410,000) out to be with us and no one was jumpy - we enjoyed the person and the car.
By jumpy, I mean that when a wannabe racer comes in - they want to go from Green to Racing in 30 seconds or less. They make the DE Team cringe.
The DE program in PCA eyes - has been the stepping stone to club racing. That is not the necessarily the case with other clubs or with folks that come out to the track to enjoy DEs.
Please do not let my vocabulary throw you off - I've been accused of being like a crossword puzzle many-a-time. And if you need further explanation, I can always rephrase. Maybe then you'll see that we may actually be saying the same thing with different words. Or - since we cannot hear each other's intonations and/or faces -- maybe not.
It's all in the fun of the sport - and getting this up in pages - yes?
***********
Colin - Does PCA keep actual records of the accidents? I'm in the SE and the accidents that have taken place at Sebring and CMP have been multi-car. I'm not referring to professional racing - and I haven't heard many at NASA -- but the news that dribbles down to us from PCA in general - has made it seem like DEs have single car accidents and club racing is multiple. Be nice to see true facts on it. I've never been one for statistics.
07-04-2008 | 09:26 PM
#160
Nordschleife Master
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 8,305
Likes: 12
From: Kingston, NY
PCA Club Racing keeps all of the incident reports for quite some time (Insurance thing if I recall correctly). I'd have to agree with Colin that there are more single car incidences than multi car at club races.
In the NorthEast, I don't feel that there is an "us vs them" attitude at DEs beteween DE and Racers. I think the upper run groups are well adjusted to vast speed differences and while as a racer I can't go 10/10s every corner every lap, I can usually get at least one clean lap.
In the NorthEast, I don't feel that there is an "us vs them" attitude at DEs beteween DE and Racers. I think the upper run groups are well adjusted to vast speed differences and while as a racer I can't go 10/10s every corner every lap, I can usually get at least one clean lap.
07-04-2008 | 09:35 PM
#161
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Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 41,905
Likes: 1,752
From: All Ate Up With Motor
07-04-2008 | 10:43 PM
#162
Pro
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 627
Likes: 0
From: Bluffton, SC
Mark - to avoid confusion
We have had a few racers come to join us - like Seth Thomas and friends of Bimmerworld - who made our DE a lot of fun.
But normally, we do not have racers joining us -- I can even remember the former Chief Instructor of Crown, coming to visit us on a Sunday, looking over our instructor roster and saying out loud how he hadn't seen so many on that list in ages - that they were really DE instructors and not racers helping out being instructors.
The "racers" I truly refer to - are the wannabes - so I hope that clears that up. I'm serious - Green to Club Racer in 30 second mentality. I hope it is something you never get to experience. Just ask any Chief Instructor or DE Team member about what they can put you through...
Are we on 12 yet? Anyone watching Brumos 250 at Daytona tonight?
P.S. I don't think anyone from any organization would release every accident report to the public. I remember trying to get info about HSR
I believe that some of us have info from those tracks/events we watch. I don't think anyone person knows it all...
And have I ever told any of you - I don't believe in statistics - I don't even like them. An FYI - when I'm told by a doctor that 99.9% can't have the disease, I hate that I'm in that .01% each time!
We have had a few racers come to join us - like Seth Thomas and friends of Bimmerworld - who made our DE a lot of fun.
But normally, we do not have racers joining us -- I can even remember the former Chief Instructor of Crown, coming to visit us on a Sunday, looking over our instructor roster and saying out loud how he hadn't seen so many on that list in ages - that they were really DE instructors and not racers helping out being instructors.
The "racers" I truly refer to - are the wannabes - so I hope that clears that up. I'm serious - Green to Club Racer in 30 second mentality. I hope it is something you never get to experience. Just ask any Chief Instructor or DE Team member about what they can put you through...
Are we on 12 yet? Anyone watching Brumos 250 at Daytona tonight?
P.S. I don't think anyone from any organization would release every accident report to the public. I remember trying to get info about HSR
I believe that some of us have info from those tracks/events we watch. I don't think anyone person knows it all...
And have I ever told any of you - I don't believe in statistics - I don't even like them. An FYI - when I'm told by a doctor that 99.9% can't have the disease, I hate that I'm in that .01% each time!
07-05-2008 | 12:26 AM
#163
Formula One Spin Doctor
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From: RPM Central
07-05-2008 | 09:05 AM
#164
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Joined: Jun 2001
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From: The Flying Turtle Ranch
Facts are no fun.
I'll do it. I'm adding my teammate and arch-nemesis, Doug Crossman, to the list as he's gotten quite fast as well.
Steward B: See -- it's a groundswell of support for this proposal
Steward B: See -- it's a groundswell of support for this proposal
07-05-2008 | 09:43 AM
#165
Pro
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 579
Likes: 4
From: Stanfordville NY
There are so many things wrong here, where do I start. First, most club race accidents are not multi-car. It's about 60 single/40 multi based on the incident forms I have personally filled out. I only PCA accident I have ever seen that involved more than 3 cars is the one Sean posted on this forum. So the "alot more" notion is just fear mongering.
Second, I have never met a racer that doesn't understand the difference between DE and racing, but I have met lots of DE only people that will call what they do "racing". I have found that the there are far bigger egos at a DE than at a race. You can't hide from the time sheets, but you can always blame someone's speed on the car at a DE. And how many times have you seen a brutal slow instructor in red...that's ego.
Second, I have never met a racer that doesn't understand the difference between DE and racing, but I have met lots of DE only people that will call what they do "racing". I have found that the there are far bigger egos at a DE than at a race. You can't hide from the time sheets, but you can always blame someone's speed on the car at a DE. And how many times have you seen a brutal slow instructor in red...that's ego.
Cmon Colin. You have only been scruting about a year. That does not make you an expert. You wear that, and "Club Racer" like some freakin badge of honor. That in itself is a great display of ego.
To say there is less ego in Club Racing is insane. The head games are incredible. The only prize in club racing is "getting to be big dog". That is a quote from someone who knows alot more than you about Club Racing. You have a good run, and you can't wait to post about it.
Generalization are always subjective. Maybe you should take a better look at yourself, and tone down on your DE vs Club Racing generalizations.