SG_M3

not R1's, T1-R's toyo's Z rated street tire.

I just don't get all this bashing, you guys didn't bash Larry Herman when he posted his 2 spin video from Daytona? That was worse than this poor DE guy posting an oops video.

marcus0277

As mentioned, I was on street tires. Toyo T1Rs. The 2:08 wasn't to show off, it was just informational. Anybody that watched the video could've figured it out, but I figured I'd save them the trouble. It was, however, my fastest lap, so obviously that's why I chose to post it.

What is the safe DE line?
Interesting. I didn't feel like I was early apexing, but you're right, I don't think I hit the mark on T3 all weekend. I felt like I wasn't getting my braking done early enough to turn-in properly. First time I've been underwhelmed by my car's braking on course.
Not intentionally. Like I said, I just wasn't able to get the braking done early enough.
This is where I think an instructor would've been most helpful. I couldn't ever get this "right". Maybe it was because I wasn't hitting 5 right, but I felt like I wasn't able to brake as hard as I wanted to because I was still finishing T5 instead of straight-line braking. By the time I got the speed down, it was too late to get down to the apex.
True. Generally, I didn't push hard in that corner because I know its reputation. I think my mind somehow equated "not pushing hard" with "coasting into the corner". I agree I should've been on the throttle earlier to keep the car balanced.
Upshift is a good idea. Part of the cause of my 2nd spin in T13 was the fact that I was waiting to hit the rev-limiter before braking. I had hit it earlier, and somehow my brain had decided to set that as my cue for braking. Bad idea.

Thanks for the turn-by-turn analysis. I'll keep your pointers in mind for future reference.

trackjunky

+2 Danny

Marcus, the real issue here is not only your safety, but the safety of all DE participants. "Pushing it" is OK if you are the only one who is at risk. In a DE, things can go very wrong, very quickly. No one intentionally looks to cause damage or injury, but it can happen.

Each time an accident occurs at an event it makes the internet and sometimes the papers. It makes us look like a bunch of spoiled rich guys who live lives of high risk and have a "devil may care" attitude. This opinion usually preceeds the legal onslaught to "blame" someone for what happened. After all, someone, other than the driver, must have been the real cause of this accident.

All we are saying is that if you are going to post this type of video, don't make light of the fact that you are creating a percieved image of those who participate in track events.

We love our hobby and tend to get very passionate about things that reflect poorly upon it. I'm sure you've been able to see this for yourself.

Best of luck, and tell your friends to participate in a safe, well controlled, instructed track event.

marcus0277

Has to be the "H" on the steering wheel.

Brian P

Marcus,

Your responses to DJF1 basically say that you are driving too hard into the corners and that is being caused by braking too late. Starting braking hard much earlier than what you are currently doing and gradually ease up as you get to the corner.

For example... pick a braking point and start at 100% brakes. When you are 10% into the braking zone, go to 90% braking. At 20% in, go to 80% braking. Tail it off so that at 90% in, you are at 10% braking, and at turn-in, you are off the brakes.

The above sequence isn't ideal but it will give you a good base to work with and you should be able to safely adjust from there.

Also, next time you are at an event and they don't have an instructor, insist that there was some kind of mistake and that you definitely need an instructor.

mglobe

Like others have commented before, I don't think it's possible to overstate the value of instruction at the race course. Without it, you're doomed to perfecting your mistakes.

That said, I think we've been too harsh on the video poster. Many of us have posted videos of our spins and/or offs that document what dumb a$$es we're capable of being without being flamed. Any derision should really be directed at organizations that don't offer the appropriate level of instruction and oversight of driving capabilities of the participants.

ervtx

Fascinating discussion; I tend to end up where Greg Smith did....

OK, sharp criticism of his driving is deserved.

On the other hand, some of the criticism is disingenuous - like mis-quoting the driver in order to make a funny, flippant remark. Since the driver wrote "I forgot to brake in time", what other purpose is there in writing:

I like the "I forgot to brake".
I'm no genius but...I forgot to brake? Wow!
I wonder if he forgets to brake while driving on the street.

and several more like these....?

Also, it would be fairly easy to find a rennlister video posting with examples of similar offs that received nowhere near the reaction that this guy received.

Yet, the issues raised regarding the sport, and concerns over others' safety are valid. Plus it's expected that the degree of anonymity in internet forums leads to less politeness that what would be expected in the same debate taking place in a DE classroom. So give ourselves a break, right?

Add to that his posting/editing behavior on youtube. So he's certainly not helping himself by covering up valid critique. Sharp criticism is deserved for that as well.

On the other hand, the guy did enter hostile rennlist territory to face the criticism. Gotta give him credit for the courage and effort that took. How much easier would it have been for him to just blow it all off and slink into internet obscurity? So which data points should we use to judge his character... deleting comments, or entering rennlist and asking for constructive input?

He also posted video of lap that would surely not have been so intensely criticized if that were his only post. Danny's turn by turn review notwithstanding, that driving wasn't shockingly bad or any worse than what many of us have looked like at one point or another. Which data points should we use to judge his driving... the first or second post?

Finally, when he specifically solicits input... precious few tell him to "attend the next LSR PCA DE event". Hasn't the main theme here been on the quality of instruction?

And yet... as impressed as one can be at the quality of PCA instruction (as am I), there are no perfect organizations or events. To illustrate, here are two laps of PCA-instructed advanced run group students - at the same track just two days ago... http://www.vimeo.com/1190281 Whether it was my driving, or that of the others, or both, the outcome is the same (SOMEone - a solo driver - was driving well below the norm for the run group assigned). IMHO, the worst driving was by a student from the next higher advanced run group! No offs in this one, but potentially just as dangerous.

So I see plenty of criticism to go around, but not all of it is voiced. Seems to me, the issue of this thread has turned into NOT whether to be critical of marcus, or how much, but whether or not we have been fair with him. I believe we have not.

Marcus, welcome to Rennlist. Here you will find great drivers and bad drivers, good instructors and bad instructors, constructive criticism and cheap shots, serious debate and childish humor. Take it with a grain of salt, but not too much; a lot of knowledgeable people here. The LSR PCA instructors are the best! Try them out...

38D

I haven't read this whole thread, but here's a few comments on your video. First, you expect a pass form the Cayman when he is clearly waiting to pass the Boxster in front. Second, you say "braking to avoid the <insert car>". You should constantly be judging your closing speeds. Lastly, you need to maintain better spacing while following people for a pass. You are constantly yo-yo-ing back and forth to "get a run" which confuses many students. Pick a comfortable distance (for me it's 2-3") and keep that distance constant.

ervtx

The Cayman thought he was being held up by the Boxter, and the Boxter thought he was being held up by the Mazda. When I passed the Cayman, he did not keep up with the Boxter and I. When I passed the Boxter, he did not keep up with me as I closed on the Mazda. They each thought they were waiting their turn to pass, and neither was truly quick enough to maintain the pace for a full lap.

The advanced instruction received in the classroom just prior to this session was "if you want to pass the car in front of you, don't ride his bumper until the next passing opportunity. Back off and then re-close the gap in time to make the pass early and safely.

Also, not very visible in the video is the mirror tap given to me by the boxter - a full lap prior to the actual point-by.

But even if you are 100% correct on all counts, my point is made... there is plenty here to critique, and marcus got a dose of double standard...

DJF1

Fair Enough.
If I remember correctly there is a break on the fence to the right. That was my mark when I started out back in the late 90's at TWS in the Green group. In any case it is later the turn in point. Again the key here is lift to bring the nose down, turn and back on throttle immediately to stabilize the platform on the transition. A good instructor will show you the safe "DE" line.
There is a cement patch on the left of the track, which is the start of the track out of 3 if you drive it reverse. In my days it was painted yellow. I use to put my left wheel there and when the patch run out that was my turn in for 3. Next time you go out there look for it. If its not there, next time you run, at the moment your brain tells you to turn, count 1,2,3 fast and then turn. Take it at a lower speed to get the feel for it. If you get it right its one motion and it will send the car to the track out so far left that you will have to tuck in the car slightly as it straightens out. This turn was my all time favorite at TWS WHEN I got it right...
There is nothing wrong with trailbraking if you do it right. The black patch again is your friend, there on the left side just as the black patch starts, the pavement was wider and then it would narrow. I use to put my left wheel on the left and as it narrowed I would start to turn. This trick was shown to be by my friend Robert H who is a hot shoe on this track.
Not sure if there is still there a "bushy tree" as you start turning on 5 from the middle of the track there was a bushy tree standing on its own straight ahead. If I would point my car to that tree, it would straighten my line and that would bring me close to the edge of the track. The car really never truly straightens. out. Just as you are almost parallel still slightly turning and see the dry bed on the right stab the brake very quickly for a very brief period of time, just to get the nose down again, turn and on the throttle. Again here practice at low speed to get the feel of the turn. One motion really smooth and decisive on throttle.
You should be on throttle with the rear loaded before the Apex. you experienced what it could cost you if you dont have proper weight transfer in this turn. Always ensure that you hit that Apex as this is the only negative camber part of that turn. Miss the apex and prepare to go straight out on to the boulders...
If you upshift and be on throttle you will end up with much higher speed so you will need to downshift and brake earlier. Its easy to over do it and remember that Larry Curly and Moe are the most important sequence on this track as they lead to the longest straightaway.
No problem. Just keep your head down and stay safe out there. TWS is a GREAT track, I have spend much time on that track and while it is amazing when you get it right, it can lead to some big off's if you dont... I'm really envious you guys get to drive there, I can still feel what it was like running there on a hot Texas day. Great stuff.

RJay

But before you do, be sure to understand exactly whose shouldering the liability if something goes wrong! I know that with several organizations outside PCA instructors are not covered in the event of litigation. As VR points out, lots of sharks in the water, consider carefully what a couple of free days and a little 'altruism' could cost.

MarkSchu

+1 this cannot be a PCA group

Veloce Raptor

He did more than spin twice, Greg. Please.

Because he chose to post a self-glorification video showing 4 instances in a weekend where he barely avoided a potentially fatal wreck in an open topped twitchy car, then derided as "never having been on a road course" some folks like Bryan Watts who made valid suggestions to him. As I said before, posting said video only hurts our sport.

AFAIK, you have never posted a compendium of near fatal ****ups, have you?

Stop being so defensive over this guy. Some of us tried to help (I do not have a You Tube account), and he crapped all over them. Nuff said.

Veloce Raptor

No, it's not, Sean. Larry was in a fully caged enclosed car in race conditions, and he spun in a place not likely to cause a fatal rollover in an S2000. Larry is also a stellar driver.

Veloce Raptor

Russell, did you get a car # for the White student in the gray Boxster? If so, PM it to me, please, and I will make a point of working with that person at our next event to reduce their obliviousness.