Notices
Racing & Drivers Education Forum
Sponsored by:
Sponsored by:

Spec Miata?

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old 06-16-2008, 01:30 PM
  #1  
MTosi
User
Thread Starter
 
MTosi's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Sterling, MA
Posts: 1,467
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default Spec Miata?

(not realy Porsche content, but still racing)

As relatively poor aspiring race driver, I always hear oh yeah go race spec miata, its cheap....

Anyway, I have to questions (and observations) and was wondering if anyone here has any first hand experience with it, and if I'm off base with these?

So about cheap...... when I get talking to with people from the SCCA, involved with spec miata it always comes out that you need 35-45k for a nationally competetive car. Of course this is always prefaced with "if you are a good driver" even without a nationally competetive car you can still finish in the top 5. Now I don't have a problem with that except, if I'm going to do something I like to have the ability to win (so when I don't, I know its my fault not and can't use the excuse that I'm 10hp short in a "spec" class, but I'm sure I'll still find plenty more ). Now my question is where is that money spent? This is what seems to be the common build specs and it just doesn't add up....

Donor car: 5000
Cage: 2000
spec suspension: 1100
saftey (seat etc.): 1100
Crate motor (I thought this was "spec" ): 7000
hard top (if not included) : 2000
LW wheels/Tires: 1500
minor things budget: 3000

Total: 22,700
Labor: 12,300-22,300?????

^ that was on the highend of all the components, and it only came out to that. My question is labor realy that much? if so that would explain alot, and I would be happy since I would be doing all the labor (-cage, so included labor in the price). However if not, what is all the other money being spend on, or what am I missing on that list? 25K for a nationally competetive car (obv. not including cost of running, trailering, etc.), with a development latter like Mazda's would seem to be a very viable, and excellent option. 35K-45K on the other hand is certainly not, at least for me.

Other questions-
How much cheating is going on? I've heard alot, is this correct?
Driving like bumper cars? with no penalties?
2006 runoffs, top three cars same engine builders, isn't this suppose to be "spec"? What sort of HP diference between crate motors and stock?
From my first hand observation miata's seem to be pretty neutral and easy to drive to 98%, doesn't this make it easy for a 98% driver to beat a 100% driver with a 7-10hp cheater (or realy well built motor)?
Spec Miata or Spec/Cup 944? (44 crowd has always seemed alot more relaxed and friendly plus alot cheaper plus it ties in with my P car roots, but obv. no where near the opportunities or amount of competetiors, well 44cup at hyperfest does 45 cars....)
What other options are there?

Anyway thanks in advance, Mike

PCA club racers, please try to keep your laughing down to a minimum at my idea of cheap/expensive
Old 06-16-2008, 01:45 PM
  #2  
rsa
Addict
Rennlist Member

 
rsa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Lake Forest, Illinois
Posts: 251
Received 8 Likes on 2 Posts
Default

A crate motor is closer to $2500.
Sunbelt motors (and others) will run $7000+ for upgrades. This includes tweaking the cylinder heads, which is very important.
Air intake upgrade is legal and some say adds 3hp.

If by cheating you mean "built" motors, then yes. The national and fast guys have better than factory crate motors. My car has a crate motor with not mods and stock airbox and is 2 seconds off the pace on a roughly 2 mile track!

Bumper cars? Bump drafting is not unusual. Some series will have more than that.

Built motors are good for 10-15% gains.

Very neutral when dialed in correctly.

I do not think spec miata is anything to laugh at at all. Very close momentum racing.
Old 06-16-2008, 02:28 PM
  #3  
MTosi
User
Thread Starter
 
MTosi's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Sterling, MA
Posts: 1,467
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by rsa
A crate motor is closer to $2500.
Sunbelt motors (and others) will run $7000+ for upgrades. This includes tweaking the cylinder heads, which is very important.
Air intake upgrade is legal and some say adds 3hp.

If by cheating you mean "built" motors, then yes. The national and fast guys have better than factory crate motors. My car has a crate motor with not mods and stock airbox and is 2 seconds off the pace on a roughly 2 mile track!

Bumper cars? Bump drafting is not unusual. Some series will have more than that.

Built motors are good for 10-15% gains.

Very neutral when dialed in correctly.

I do not think spec miata is anything to laugh at at all. Very close momentum racing.
Thanks for the insight! When I was referring to laughing, It was that 25k is a drop in the bucket compared to some of the budgets to run PCA cars. I should have explained myself better, by crate motor, I meant a built motor. I have to believe in a spec class those 5-13 HP has to make at least a 2 sec difference, if not more. It seems like great racing, whether you have a car that can win or not. I was just wondering how much more it takes to have a winning national car vs. a regional car.
Old 06-16-2008, 02:32 PM
  #4  
Circuit Motorsports
Addict
Rennlist Member

Rennlist Small
Business Sponsor

 
Circuit Motorsports's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Durham, NC
Posts: 3,183
Received 10 Likes on 7 Posts
Default

Spec Miata is NOT cheap racing at the National level. The cars are 30K plus, 10K motors, 50 dollar a gallon fuel, etc.

At a regional level they can be run competitively and cheap still. If you are a good driver you can find a 10K car, run it on pump gas with the original motor and be in the front half of the field.

Your numbers are all on the high side too.

Donor car: 5000 Can be found for 2-3K easily
Cage: 2000 1000-1500 it helps that there are so many out there being built
spec suspension: 1100
saftey (seat etc.): 1100 seats can be cheaper as well as nets
Crate motor (I thought this was "spec" ): 7000 Only needed at nationals
hard top (if not included) : 2000 Usually 1K
LW wheels/Tires: 1500
minor things budget: 3000

Total: 22,700
Labor: 12,300-22,300?????
There are places that sell "Spec Miata in a Box" for about 5K. You bring the car and that will have everything outside of tires that you need to run SM. Advanced Autosports is a place local to me that does that. I know a few places that sell built for you SM cars starting at 10K

Spec doesn't mean cheap. In the infancy of a class it usually does but as a spec class matures and grows it usually begins to get overly expensive because 1-3 horsepower can be a big advantage in a 'spec' class.
Old 06-16-2008, 02:32 PM
  #5  
seege
Addict
Rennlist Member

 
seege's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Rancho Mirage, California
Posts: 630
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

Here in the SoPac division of SCCA you will not finish top 5 without a very good car. Seriously.

I would guess that most aspiring pro racers with any means are currently, or planning on, running SM. Competing is different than winning. Top 10 cars can be had for $15K , cars capable of winning in the right hands can be found in the $20's, the big dogs aren't talking much about what they spend because they spend alot. Rules interpretation has opened the door for so much expensive pseudo legal BS it's making budget guys leave.

Legal prep: $8K+ motors ( WTF - Balance and Blueprint is not allowed) plus dyno development, regular gearbox and diff rebuilds, blueprinted hubs, shaved tires, multiple shaves wet and dry, etc.

So much illegal prep it's mind-boggling: B & B everything, compression bumps, coated everything, Cheated-up ECUs etc.

The racing is close and sometimes rough. Half the passes are made on a miss-shift, Drafting will take seconds off on big HP tracks, bumpdrafting is illegal and the funnest part of it. Everyone is using data, the top guys make very few to no mistakes in a 40 minute race. It's awesome.

I wrecked a 95 and built a 99 this year and did it all myself except the cage.

Build prices vary by Generation 1, 2, or 3.

Don't do your own cage.

Donor 4-7K 99
2-5K 94-96
1-4K 1st gen

Cage 2500
Top 800
SM Kit 1200
Radiator 400
Clutch 700
Trans R & R 1000
Diff R & R 1000
Entry Pro Motor 7000
Exhaust 400
Suspension Freshening 1500
Kill switch 150
Transponder 400
New Battery 120
New hoses belts etc 300
Rebuild Alt and Starter 150
New Hubs and Bearings 300
Seat and Belts ?
Data ?
Dyno Time ?
Wheel sets 500
Tires 600

These prices were relevant 6 months ago but probably higher now.
Diff will cost 1500 for a LSD if you have the wrong one in your donor.
You can Franken your own pro motor it's usually cheapest to start with a crate for 2K and go from there. Top cars are on the dyno alot. The winning pro motors at the Runoffs are not the winning motors from the regular season. Top teams take 3+ motors to RO's and change out to a race motor, even after q'ing top 5, wonder why?

Forget about winning on a budget. Unless your budget is $100K+ a year.

YMMV
-CJ
Old 06-16-2008, 02:40 PM
  #6  
brad@tirerack.com
Former Vendor
 
brad@tirerack.com's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: South Bend, IN
Posts: 2,787
Likes: 0
Received 12 Likes on 11 Posts
Default

As a former spec Miata driver, I say:

Old 06-16-2008, 02:49 PM
  #7  
A.Wayne
Formula One Spin Doctor
Rennlist Member
 
A.Wayne's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: RPM Central
Posts: 20,448
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

Here is a deal on a " great " Spec Miata
Attached Images  

Trending Topics

Old 06-16-2008, 03:03 PM
  #8  
MTosi
User
Thread Starter
 
MTosi's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Sterling, MA
Posts: 1,467
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by seege
Here in the SoPac division of SCCA you will not finish top 5 without a very good car. Seriously.

I would guess that most aspiring pro racers with any means are currently, or planning on, running SM. Competing is different than winning. Top 10 cars can be had for $15K , cars capable of winning in the right hands can be found in the $20's, the big dogs aren't talking much about what they spend because they spend alot. Rules interpretation has opened the door for so much expensive pseudo legal BS it's making budget guys leave.

Legal prep: $8K+ motors ( WTF - Balance and Blueprint is not allowed) plus dyno development, regular gearbox and diff rebuilds, blueprinted hubs, shaved tires, multiple shaves wet and dry, etc.

So much illegal prep it's mind-boggling: B & B everything, compression bumps, coated everything, Cheated-up ECUs etc.

The racing is close and sometimes rough. Half the passes are made on a miss-shift, Drafting will take seconds off on big HP tracks, bumpdrafting is illegal and the funnest part of it. Everyone is using data, the top guys make very few to no mistakes in a 40 minute race. It's awesome.

I wrecked a 95 and built a 99 this year and did it all myself except the cage.

Build prices vary by Generation 1, 2, or 3.

Don't do your own cage.

Donor 4-7K 99
2-5K 94-96
1-4K 1st gen

Cage 2500
Top 800
SM Kit 1200
Radiator 400
Clutch 700
Trans R & R 1000
Diff R & R 1000
Entry Pro Motor 7000
Exhaust 400
Suspension Freshening 1500
Kill switch 150
Transponder 400
New Battery 120
New hoses belts etc 300
Rebuild Alt and Starter 150
New Hubs and Bearings 300
Seat and Belts ?
Data ?
Dyno Time ?
Wheel sets 500
Tires 600

These prices were relevant 6 months ago but probably higher now.
Diff will cost 1500 for a LSD if you have the wrong one in your donor.
You can Franken your own pro motor it's usually cheapest to start with a crate for 2K and go from there. Top cars are on the dyno alot. The winning pro motors at the Runoffs are not the winning motors from the regular season. Top teams take 3+ motors to RO's and change out to a race motor, even after q'ing top 5, wonder why?

Forget about winning on a budget. Unless your budget is $100K+ a year.

YMMV
-CJ
Thanks CJ! thats exactley the sort of run down I was looking for. It's realy too bad that SCCA wasn't able to predict what was going to happen and require sealed crate motors from mazda. I see no reason they couldn't do that now......but then again it is the SCCA.....all that stuff is not what I wanted to hear, but then again it is the reality of racing, all for a silly trophy at the runoffs...... why is that attitude rampant through out the SCCA, is it anyless so in NASA SM, since if you win the national champ ther, you still get the chance to go out for the MX 5 seat...

Originally Posted by A.Wayne
Here is a deal on a " great " Spec Miata
where do you and VR get these pics....
Old 06-16-2008, 04:01 PM
  #9  
2BWise
Three Wheelin'
 
2BWise's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Northville, MI
Posts: 1,311
Received 10 Likes on 6 Posts
Default

I have a friend thats running a SM regionally here in the midwest and is usually finishing mid pack with a very basic car. His motor needs a rebuild this off season and might be slightly down on power. He only replaces the consumables, tires, brakes, etc as necessary. Currently, he's about 2 seconds off the leader's pace at Mid-Oh, his home track.

That said I have been considering running a SM next year as I start racing, but am trying to stay away due to the number of "advances" that can be made and not adequately checked. Instead I'm looking at getting a spec 944. Its legal in PCA, NASA, and SCCA (although not competitive) so there's lots of options to get experience.
Old 06-16-2008, 04:26 PM
  #10  
schwank
Herr Unmöglich
Rennlist Member
 
schwank's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Portland
Posts: 5,402
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
Default

As a 944 cup racer, I say the hell with Miatas, build a 944.

I can build my car for less than half of a Miata once you total up all the goodies. It has a real metal roof that is a permanent part of the car. I can go just as fast and hold my own in the turns against all but the best Miata drivers. Spare motors are cheap and you don't have to spend and spend to be competitive in a 'spec' class.

I have seen more wrecked Miatas and E30's than any other car on the track. Totally non-sceintific, but nonetheless, I like my car in one piece when I get home. Not to mention when I tow the 944 home on the trailer, not everyone questions my sexuality. Just the 911 drivers.

That said, if you are into a Spec Pinata, buy one already built and save some money for that fancy engine and replacement fenders you are going to need.
Old 06-16-2008, 04:30 PM
  #11  
triple_nickel
AutoX
 
triple_nickel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Foothill Ranch, CA
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default Spec Boxster?

Another option might be a spec boxster. I'm looking into that now. Any thoughts?
Old 06-16-2008, 04:39 PM
  #12  
MTosi
User
Thread Starter
 
MTosi's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Sterling, MA
Posts: 1,467
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by schwank
As a 944 cup racer, I say the hell with Miatas, build a 944.

I can build my car for less than half of a Miata once you total up all the goodies. It has a real metal roof that is a permanent part of the car. I can go just as fast and hold my own in the turns against all but the best Miata drivers. Spare motors are cheap and you don't have to spend and spend to be competitive in a 'spec' class.

I have seen more wrecked Miatas and E30's than any other car on the track. Totally non-sceintific, but nonetheless, I like my car in one piece when I get home. Not to mention when I tow the 944 home on the trailer, not everyone questions my sexuality. Just the 911 drivers.

That said, if you are into a Spec Pinata, buy one already built and save some money for that fancy engine and replacement fenders you are going to need.
To be quite honest I will most likely be going into 944 cup in a few years. Since I work for a Pcar shop and we know where to find them dirt cheap. Plus I've already had quite a few and know how to do all the fun stuff on them like changing clutches and T bars. The only reason I'm considering Miata is that I would like to race prof. (yes I am realy young and have been performance driving in one way or another for 6-7 years, not a 30 year old who just decided this) and they seem to have set up a ladder system over there in Mazda land. However if were talking a 50-70k budget if not more to have a truly competetive national car, I don't see the point, why not just buy an MX-5 Cup car. Like I said before I also like the attitude of the 944 guys, they are out there to have a good time, they aren't all spending tens of thousands of dollars to win some silly club trophy. Plus I think the 944 is more of a car, and not as easy as a Miata to drive (which in my opinion is a good thing) yet at the same time you can still get that momentum racing. Plus to be quite honest, it seems every 944 ive driven (over 10) none seem to have a power advantage, they all just have none . The only thing would be which class to build a 944 up to, since it seems as if 44cup is the big class on this side of the country.

Originally Posted by triple_nickel
Another option might be a spec boxster. I'm looking into that now. Any thoughts?
I think thats way out of my budget
Old 06-16-2008, 04:54 PM
  #13  
gums
Rennlist Member
 
gums's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 4,473
Likes: 0
Received 5 Likes on 4 Posts
Default

what I've learned in racing is that the cost to campaign a car is far more important that the original outlay. In this way, a S/M is way easier than any Porsche. Consider that we'd run 12 and 13 hour enduros without even looking at the gauges, then contemplate whether it would even need new rotors at $75 or so for the next event. Tires would last as well, as they're spec. But, I wouldn't go National racing in one, either. Of course, you don't go that fast, but the racing is ferocious.
Old 06-16-2008, 05:05 PM
  #14  
Veloce Raptor
Rennlist Member
 
Veloce Raptor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Guess...
Posts: 41,783
Received 1,598 Likes on 832 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by A.Wayne
Here is a deal on a " great " Spec Miata
You look great in that red sweater, Wayne.

Tosi, if you do race SM, withdraw if you ever see this cretin wandering the paddock:

Last edited by Veloce Raptor; 02-20-2009 at 07:12 PM.
Old 06-16-2008, 05:19 PM
  #15  
Bull
Addict
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
 
Bull's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 12,346
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes on 4 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by MTosi
........................... Plus I think the 944 is more of a car, and not as easy as a Miata to drive (which in my opinion is a good thing)
.........................................
Didn't I see a question about why anyone would choose to race a 911???


Quick Reply: Spec Miata?



All times are GMT -3. The time now is 04:27 PM.