Spec Miata?
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(not realy Porsche content, but still racing)
As relatively poor aspiring race driver, I always hear oh yeah go race spec miata, its cheap....
Anyway, I have to questions (and observations) and was wondering if anyone here has any first hand experience with it, and if I'm off base with these?
So about cheap...... when I get talking to with people from the SCCA, involved with spec miata it always comes out that you need 35-45k for a nationally competetive car. Of course this is always prefaced with "if you are a good driver" even without a nationally competetive car you can still finish in the top 5. Now I don't have a problem with that except, if I'm going to do something I like to have the ability to win (so when I don't, I know its my fault not and can't use the excuse that I'm 10hp short in a "spec" class, but I'm sure I'll still find plenty more
). Now my question is where is that money spent? This is what seems to be the common build specs and it just doesn't add up....
Donor car: 5000
Cage: 2000
spec suspension: 1100
saftey (seat etc.): 1100
Crate motor (I thought this was "spec"
): 7000
hard top (if not included) : 2000
LW wheels/Tires: 1500
minor things budget: 3000
Total: 22,700
Labor: 12,300-22,300?????
^ that was on the highend of all the components, and it only came out to that. My question is labor realy that much? if so that would explain alot, and I would be happy since I would be doing all the labor (-cage, so included labor in the price). However if not, what is all the other money being spend on, or what am I missing on that list? 25K for a nationally competetive car (obv. not including cost of running, trailering, etc.), with a development latter like Mazda's would seem to be a very viable, and excellent option. 35K-45K on the other hand is certainly not, at least for me.
Other questions-
How much cheating is going on? I've heard alot, is this correct?
Driving like bumper cars? with no penalties?
2006 runoffs, top three cars same engine builders, isn't this suppose to be "spec"? What sort of HP diference between crate motors and stock?
From my first hand observation miata's seem to be pretty neutral and easy to drive to 98%, doesn't this make it easy for a 98% driver to beat a 100% driver with a 7-10hp cheater (or realy well built motor)?
Spec Miata or Spec/Cup 944? (44 crowd has always seemed alot more relaxed and friendly plus alot cheaper plus it ties in with my P car roots, but obv. no where near the opportunities or amount of competetiors, well 44cup at hyperfest does 45 cars....)
What other options are there?
Anyway thanks in advance, Mike
PCA club racers, please try to keep your laughing down to a minimum at my idea of cheap/expensive
As relatively poor aspiring race driver, I always hear oh yeah go race spec miata, its cheap....
Anyway, I have to questions (and observations) and was wondering if anyone here has any first hand experience with it, and if I'm off base with these?
So about cheap...... when I get talking to with people from the SCCA, involved with spec miata it always comes out that you need 35-45k for a nationally competetive car. Of course this is always prefaced with "if you are a good driver" even without a nationally competetive car you can still finish in the top 5. Now I don't have a problem with that except, if I'm going to do something I like to have the ability to win (so when I don't, I know its my fault not and can't use the excuse that I'm 10hp short in a "spec" class, but I'm sure I'll still find plenty more
![Big Grin](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
Donor car: 5000
Cage: 2000
spec suspension: 1100
saftey (seat etc.): 1100
Crate motor (I thought this was "spec"
![Confused](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/confused.gif)
hard top (if not included) : 2000
LW wheels/Tires: 1500
minor things budget: 3000
Total: 22,700
Labor: 12,300-22,300?????
^ that was on the highend of all the components, and it only came out to that. My question is labor realy that much? if so that would explain alot, and I would be happy since I would be doing all the labor (-cage, so included labor in the price). However if not, what is all the other money being spend on, or what am I missing on that list? 25K for a nationally competetive car (obv. not including cost of running, trailering, etc.), with a development latter like Mazda's would seem to be a very viable, and excellent option. 35K-45K on the other hand is certainly not, at least for me.
Other questions-
How much cheating is going on? I've heard alot, is this correct?
Driving like bumper cars? with no penalties?
2006 runoffs, top three cars same engine builders, isn't this suppose to be "spec"? What sort of HP diference between crate motors and stock?
From my first hand observation miata's seem to be pretty neutral and easy to drive to 98%, doesn't this make it easy for a 98% driver to beat a 100% driver with a 7-10hp cheater (or realy well built motor)?
Spec Miata or Spec/Cup 944? (44 crowd has always seemed alot more relaxed and friendly plus alot cheaper plus it ties in with my P car roots, but obv. no where near the opportunities or amount of competetiors, well 44cup at hyperfest does 45 cars....)
What other options are there?
Anyway thanks in advance, Mike
PCA club racers, please try to keep your laughing down to a minimum at my idea of cheap/expensive
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A crate motor is closer to $2500.
Sunbelt motors (and others) will run $7000+ for upgrades. This includes tweaking the cylinder heads, which is very important.
Air intake upgrade is legal and some say adds 3hp.
If by cheating you mean "built" motors, then yes. The national and fast guys have better than factory crate motors. My car has a crate motor with not mods and stock airbox and is 2 seconds off the pace on a roughly 2 mile track!
Bumper cars? Bump drafting is not unusual. Some series will have more than that.
Built motors are good for 10-15% gains.
Very neutral when dialed in correctly.
I do not think spec miata is anything to laugh at at all. Very close momentum racing.
Sunbelt motors (and others) will run $7000+ for upgrades. This includes tweaking the cylinder heads, which is very important.
Air intake upgrade is legal and some say adds 3hp.
If by cheating you mean "built" motors, then yes. The national and fast guys have better than factory crate motors. My car has a crate motor with not mods and stock airbox and is 2 seconds off the pace on a roughly 2 mile track!
Bumper cars? Bump drafting is not unusual. Some series will have more than that.
Built motors are good for 10-15% gains.
Very neutral when dialed in correctly.
I do not think spec miata is anything to laugh at at all. Very close momentum racing.
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A crate motor is closer to $2500.
Sunbelt motors (and others) will run $7000+ for upgrades. This includes tweaking the cylinder heads, which is very important.
Air intake upgrade is legal and some say adds 3hp.
If by cheating you mean "built" motors, then yes. The national and fast guys have better than factory crate motors. My car has a crate motor with not mods and stock airbox and is 2 seconds off the pace on a roughly 2 mile track!
Bumper cars? Bump drafting is not unusual. Some series will have more than that.
Built motors are good for 10-15% gains.
Very neutral when dialed in correctly.
I do not think spec miata is anything to laugh at at all. Very close momentum racing.
Sunbelt motors (and others) will run $7000+ for upgrades. This includes tweaking the cylinder heads, which is very important.
Air intake upgrade is legal and some say adds 3hp.
If by cheating you mean "built" motors, then yes. The national and fast guys have better than factory crate motors. My car has a crate motor with not mods and stock airbox and is 2 seconds off the pace on a roughly 2 mile track!
Bumper cars? Bump drafting is not unusual. Some series will have more than that.
Built motors are good for 10-15% gains.
Very neutral when dialed in correctly.
I do not think spec miata is anything to laugh at at all. Very close momentum racing.
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Spec Miata is NOT cheap racing at the National level. The cars are 30K plus, 10K motors, 50 dollar a gallon fuel, etc.
At a regional level they can be run competitively and cheap still. If you are a good driver you can find a 10K car, run it on pump gas with the original motor and be in the front half of the field.
Your numbers are all on the high side too.
There are places that sell "Spec Miata in a Box" for about 5K. You bring the car and that will have everything outside of tires that you need to run SM. Advanced Autosports is a place local to me that does that. I know a few places that sell built for you SM cars starting at 10K
Spec doesn't mean cheap. In the infancy of a class it usually does but as a spec class matures and grows it usually begins to get overly expensive because 1-3 horsepower can be a big advantage in a 'spec' class.
At a regional level they can be run competitively and cheap still. If you are a good driver you can find a 10K car, run it on pump gas with the original motor and be in the front half of the field.
Your numbers are all on the high side too.
Donor car: 5000 Can be found for 2-3K easily
Cage: 2000 1000-1500 it helps that there are so many out there being built
spec suspension: 1100
saftey (seat etc.): 1100 seats can be cheaper as well as nets
Crate motor (I thought this was "spec" ): 7000 Only needed at nationals
hard top (if not included) : 2000 Usually 1K
LW wheels/Tires: 1500
minor things budget: 3000
Total: 22,700
Labor: 12,300-22,300?????
Cage: 2000 1000-1500 it helps that there are so many out there being built
spec suspension: 1100
saftey (seat etc.): 1100 seats can be cheaper as well as nets
Crate motor (I thought this was "spec" ): 7000 Only needed at nationals
hard top (if not included) : 2000 Usually 1K
LW wheels/Tires: 1500
minor things budget: 3000
Total: 22,700
Labor: 12,300-22,300?????
Spec doesn't mean cheap. In the infancy of a class it usually does but as a spec class matures and grows it usually begins to get overly expensive because 1-3 horsepower can be a big advantage in a 'spec' class.
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Here in the SoPac division of SCCA you will not finish top 5 without a very good car. Seriously.
I would guess that most aspiring pro racers with any means are currently, or planning on, running SM. Competing is different than winning. Top 10 cars can be had for $15K , cars capable of winning in the right hands can be found in the $20's, the big dogs aren't talking much about what they spend because they spend alot. Rules interpretation has opened the door for so much expensive pseudo legal BS it's making budget guys leave.
Legal prep: $8K+ motors ( WTF - Balance and Blueprint is not allowed) plus dyno development, regular gearbox and diff rebuilds, blueprinted hubs, shaved tires, multiple shaves wet and dry, etc.
So much illegal prep it's mind-boggling: B & B everything, compression bumps, coated everything, Cheated-up ECUs etc.
The racing is close and sometimes rough. Half the passes are made on a miss-shift, Drafting will take seconds off on big HP tracks, bumpdrafting is illegal and the funnest part of it. Everyone is using data, the top guys make very few to no mistakes in a 40 minute race. It's awesome.
I wrecked a 95 and built a 99 this year and did it all myself except the cage.
Build prices vary by Generation 1, 2, or 3.
Don't do your own cage.
Donor 4-7K 99
2-5K 94-96
1-4K 1st gen
Cage 2500
Top 800
SM Kit 1200
Radiator 400
Clutch 700
Trans R & R 1000
Diff R & R 1000
Entry Pro Motor 7000
Exhaust 400
Suspension Freshening 1500
Kill switch 150
Transponder 400
New Battery 120
New hoses belts etc 300
Rebuild Alt and Starter 150
New Hubs and Bearings 300
Seat and Belts ?
Data ?
Dyno Time ?
Wheel sets 500
Tires 600
These prices were relevant 6 months ago but probably higher now.
Diff will cost 1500 for a LSD if you have the wrong one in your donor.
You can Franken your own pro motor it's usually cheapest to start with a crate for 2K and go from there. Top cars are on the dyno alot. The winning pro motors at the Runoffs are not the winning motors from the regular season. Top teams take 3+ motors to RO's and change out to a race motor, even after q'ing top 5, wonder why?
Forget about winning on a budget. Unless your budget is $100K+ a year.
YMMV
-CJ
I would guess that most aspiring pro racers with any means are currently, or planning on, running SM. Competing is different than winning. Top 10 cars can be had for $15K , cars capable of winning in the right hands can be found in the $20's, the big dogs aren't talking much about what they spend because they spend alot. Rules interpretation has opened the door for so much expensive pseudo legal BS it's making budget guys leave.
Legal prep: $8K+ motors ( WTF - Balance and Blueprint is not allowed) plus dyno development, regular gearbox and diff rebuilds, blueprinted hubs, shaved tires, multiple shaves wet and dry, etc.
So much illegal prep it's mind-boggling: B & B everything, compression bumps, coated everything, Cheated-up ECUs etc.
The racing is close and sometimes rough. Half the passes are made on a miss-shift, Drafting will take seconds off on big HP tracks, bumpdrafting is illegal and the funnest part of it. Everyone is using data, the top guys make very few to no mistakes in a 40 minute race. It's awesome.
I wrecked a 95 and built a 99 this year and did it all myself except the cage.
Build prices vary by Generation 1, 2, or 3.
Don't do your own cage.
Donor 4-7K 99
2-5K 94-96
1-4K 1st gen
Cage 2500
Top 800
SM Kit 1200
Radiator 400
Clutch 700
Trans R & R 1000
Diff R & R 1000
Entry Pro Motor 7000
Exhaust 400
Suspension Freshening 1500
Kill switch 150
Transponder 400
New Battery 120
New hoses belts etc 300
Rebuild Alt and Starter 150
New Hubs and Bearings 300
Seat and Belts ?
Data ?
Dyno Time ?
Wheel sets 500
Tires 600
These prices were relevant 6 months ago but probably higher now.
Diff will cost 1500 for a LSD if you have the wrong one in your donor.
You can Franken your own pro motor it's usually cheapest to start with a crate for 2K and go from there. Top cars are on the dyno alot. The winning pro motors at the Runoffs are not the winning motors from the regular season. Top teams take 3+ motors to RO's and change out to a race motor, even after q'ing top 5, wonder why?
Forget about winning on a budget. Unless your budget is $100K+ a year.
YMMV
-CJ
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Here in the SoPac division of SCCA you will not finish top 5 without a very good car. Seriously.
I would guess that most aspiring pro racers with any means are currently, or planning on, running SM. Competing is different than winning. Top 10 cars can be had for $15K , cars capable of winning in the right hands can be found in the $20's, the big dogs aren't talking much about what they spend because they spend alot. Rules interpretation has opened the door for so much expensive pseudo legal BS it's making budget guys leave.
Legal prep: $8K+ motors ( WTF - Balance and Blueprint is not allowed) plus dyno development, regular gearbox and diff rebuilds, blueprinted hubs, shaved tires, multiple shaves wet and dry, etc.
So much illegal prep it's mind-boggling: B & B everything, compression bumps, coated everything, Cheated-up ECUs etc.
The racing is close and sometimes rough. Half the passes are made on a miss-shift, Drafting will take seconds off on big HP tracks, bumpdrafting is illegal and the funnest part of it. Everyone is using data, the top guys make very few to no mistakes in a 40 minute race. It's awesome.
I wrecked a 95 and built a 99 this year and did it all myself except the cage.
Build prices vary by Generation 1, 2, or 3.
Don't do your own cage.
Donor 4-7K 99
2-5K 94-96
1-4K 1st gen
Cage 2500
Top 800
SM Kit 1200
Radiator 400
Clutch 700
Trans R & R 1000
Diff R & R 1000
Entry Pro Motor 7000
Exhaust 400
Suspension Freshening 1500
Kill switch 150
Transponder 400
New Battery 120
New hoses belts etc 300
Rebuild Alt and Starter 150
New Hubs and Bearings 300
Seat and Belts ?
Data ?
Dyno Time ?
Wheel sets 500
Tires 600
These prices were relevant 6 months ago but probably higher now.
Diff will cost 1500 for a LSD if you have the wrong one in your donor.
You can Franken your own pro motor it's usually cheapest to start with a crate for 2K and go from there. Top cars are on the dyno alot. The winning pro motors at the Runoffs are not the winning motors from the regular season. Top teams take 3+ motors to RO's and change out to a race motor, even after q'ing top 5, wonder why?
Forget about winning on a budget. Unless your budget is $100K+ a year.
YMMV
-CJ
I would guess that most aspiring pro racers with any means are currently, or planning on, running SM. Competing is different than winning. Top 10 cars can be had for $15K , cars capable of winning in the right hands can be found in the $20's, the big dogs aren't talking much about what they spend because they spend alot. Rules interpretation has opened the door for so much expensive pseudo legal BS it's making budget guys leave.
Legal prep: $8K+ motors ( WTF - Balance and Blueprint is not allowed) plus dyno development, regular gearbox and diff rebuilds, blueprinted hubs, shaved tires, multiple shaves wet and dry, etc.
So much illegal prep it's mind-boggling: B & B everything, compression bumps, coated everything, Cheated-up ECUs etc.
The racing is close and sometimes rough. Half the passes are made on a miss-shift, Drafting will take seconds off on big HP tracks, bumpdrafting is illegal and the funnest part of it. Everyone is using data, the top guys make very few to no mistakes in a 40 minute race. It's awesome.
I wrecked a 95 and built a 99 this year and did it all myself except the cage.
Build prices vary by Generation 1, 2, or 3.
Don't do your own cage.
Donor 4-7K 99
2-5K 94-96
1-4K 1st gen
Cage 2500
Top 800
SM Kit 1200
Radiator 400
Clutch 700
Trans R & R 1000
Diff R & R 1000
Entry Pro Motor 7000
Exhaust 400
Suspension Freshening 1500
Kill switch 150
Transponder 400
New Battery 120
New hoses belts etc 300
Rebuild Alt and Starter 150
New Hubs and Bearings 300
Seat and Belts ?
Data ?
Dyno Time ?
Wheel sets 500
Tires 600
These prices were relevant 6 months ago but probably higher now.
Diff will cost 1500 for a LSD if you have the wrong one in your donor.
You can Franken your own pro motor it's usually cheapest to start with a crate for 2K and go from there. Top cars are on the dyno alot. The winning pro motors at the Runoffs are not the winning motors from the regular season. Top teams take 3+ motors to RO's and change out to a race motor, even after q'ing top 5, wonder why?
Forget about winning on a budget. Unless your budget is $100K+ a year.
YMMV
-CJ
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#9
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I have a friend thats running a SM regionally here in the midwest and is usually finishing mid pack with a very basic car. His motor needs a rebuild this off season and might be slightly down on power. He only replaces the consumables, tires, brakes, etc as necessary. Currently, he's about 2 seconds off the leader's pace at Mid-Oh, his home track.
That said I have been considering running a SM next year as I start racing, but am trying to stay away due to the number of "advances" that can be made and not adequately checked. Instead I'm looking at getting a spec 944. Its legal in PCA, NASA, and SCCA (although not competitive) so there's lots of options to get experience.
That said I have been considering running a SM next year as I start racing, but am trying to stay away due to the number of "advances" that can be made and not adequately checked. Instead I'm looking at getting a spec 944. Its legal in PCA, NASA, and SCCA (although not competitive) so there's lots of options to get experience.
#10
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As a 944 cup racer, I say the hell with Miatas, build a 944.
I can build my car for less than half of a Miata once you total up all the goodies. It has a real metal roof that is a permanent part of the car. I can go just as fast and hold my own in the turns against all but the best Miata drivers. Spare motors are cheap and you don't have to spend and spend to be competitive in a 'spec' class.
I have seen more wrecked Miatas and E30's than any other car on the track. Totally non-sceintific, but nonetheless, I like my car in one piece when I get home. Not to mention when I tow the 944 home on the trailer, not everyone questions my sexuality. Just the 911 drivers.![ducking](https://rennlist.com/forums/graemlins/icon107.gif)
That said, if you are into a Spec Pinata, buy one already built and save some money for that fancy engine and replacement fenders you are going to need.
I can build my car for less than half of a Miata once you total up all the goodies. It has a real metal roof that is a permanent part of the car. I can go just as fast and hold my own in the turns against all but the best Miata drivers. Spare motors are cheap and you don't have to spend and spend to be competitive in a 'spec' class.
I have seen more wrecked Miatas and E30's than any other car on the track. Totally non-sceintific, but nonetheless, I like my car in one piece when I get home. Not to mention when I tow the 944 home on the trailer, not everyone questions my sexuality. Just the 911 drivers.
![ducking](https://rennlist.com/forums/graemlins/icon107.gif)
That said, if you are into a Spec Pinata, buy one already built and save some money for that fancy engine and replacement fenders you are going to need.
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As a 944 cup racer, I say the hell with Miatas, build a 944.
I can build my car for less than half of a Miata once you total up all the goodies. It has a real metal roof that is a permanent part of the car. I can go just as fast and hold my own in the turns against all but the best Miata drivers. Spare motors are cheap and you don't have to spend and spend to be competitive in a 'spec' class.
I have seen more wrecked Miatas and E30's than any other car on the track. Totally non-sceintific, but nonetheless, I like my car in one piece when I get home. Not to mention when I tow the 944 home on the trailer, not everyone questions my sexuality. Just the 911 drivers.![ducking](https://rennlist.com/forums/graemlins/icon107.gif)
That said, if you are into a Spec Pinata, buy one already built and save some money for that fancy engine and replacement fenders you are going to need.
I can build my car for less than half of a Miata once you total up all the goodies. It has a real metal roof that is a permanent part of the car. I can go just as fast and hold my own in the turns against all but the best Miata drivers. Spare motors are cheap and you don't have to spend and spend to be competitive in a 'spec' class.
I have seen more wrecked Miatas and E30's than any other car on the track. Totally non-sceintific, but nonetheless, I like my car in one piece when I get home. Not to mention when I tow the 944 home on the trailer, not everyone questions my sexuality. Just the 911 drivers.
![ducking](https://rennlist.com/forums/graemlins/icon107.gif)
That said, if you are into a Spec Pinata, buy one already built and save some money for that fancy engine and replacement fenders you are going to need.
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#13
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what I've learned in racing is that the cost to campaign a car is far more important that the original outlay. In this way, a S/M is way easier than any Porsche. Consider that we'd run 12 and 13 hour enduros without even looking at the gauges, then contemplate whether it would even need new rotors at $75 or so for the next event. Tires would last as well, as they're spec. But, I wouldn't go National racing in one, either. Of course, you don't go that fast, but the racing is ferocious.
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