Frist DE Outing...........
06-16-2008, 12:50 PM
#31
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Sounds way too fast for a sign-off to me.
The clubs I have run with in Northeast are much more cautious about sign-offs and promotions. I am just now beginning to run in white after several years of instruction. I was getting signed-off pretty regularly, but often asked instructor to stay to work on fine points (like turn 6 at WGI!)
Maybe I am a slow learner, but all my instructors have been very complimentary on my technique, etc. I just did not want to be in a hurry to be out there alone with some really fast folks. So far have been happy to take my time, and had a ball in yellow with some great teachers.
The clubs I have run with in Northeast are much more cautious about sign-offs and promotions. I am just now beginning to run in white after several years of instruction. I was getting signed-off pretty regularly, but often asked instructor to stay to work on fine points (like turn 6 at WGI!)
Maybe I am a slow learner, but all my instructors have been very complimentary on my technique, etc. I just did not want to be in a hurry to be out there alone with some really fast folks. So far have been happy to take my time, and had a ball in yellow with some great teachers.
06-16-2008, 12:52 PM
#32
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I still get some of the gray haired guys to ride around with me after 50-100 DE days and 4 years of club racing. It is amazing because I still learn something every time out.
06-16-2008, 01:28 PM
#33
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My $.02 -
I think (if deemed "safe") that students gain from solo time - I did my first DE with SCDA and on my second day out after the morning session, I was solo'd in their equiv. of a Blue group (granted I came into it with almost a decade of autocross experience and a few casual lapping days under my belt). Not "go have fun the rest of the day" solo - but "I trust your ability to manage traffic and not kill yourself or anyone else" - and I tell tell you what? A lot of things "sink in" differently when you're out recalling/remembering/doing on your own than when you hear it... I think it's that whole "experiential" vs "auditory" learning style thing. I asked to have the instructor back in the car for the 3rd session (and then drove alone for the 4th) and he said "well, it looks like what we talked about / worked on sunk in" or something along those lines...
I don't think there's any place for solo-ing Green students but I also don't think the risk is too much higher letting a Blue student go out on their own (with the idea that they should still seek someone in the right-seat more often than not) here and there to let stuff sink in. I know that in July when I go to the Glen even though I'm signed off in White I'll be asking someone to come along at least a few times, you can ALWAYS benefit from instruction or a different perspective ...
I think (if deemed "safe") that students gain from solo time - I did my first DE with SCDA and on my second day out after the morning session, I was solo'd in their equiv. of a Blue group (granted I came into it with almost a decade of autocross experience and a few casual lapping days under my belt). Not "go have fun the rest of the day" solo - but "I trust your ability to manage traffic and not kill yourself or anyone else" - and I tell tell you what? A lot of things "sink in" differently when you're out recalling/remembering/doing on your own than when you hear it... I think it's that whole "experiential" vs "auditory" learning style thing. I asked to have the instructor back in the car for the 3rd session (and then drove alone for the 4th) and he said "well, it looks like what we talked about / worked on sunk in" or something along those lines...
I don't think there's any place for solo-ing Green students but I also don't think the risk is too much higher letting a Blue student go out on their own (with the idea that they should still seek someone in the right-seat more often than not) here and there to let stuff sink in. I know that in July when I go to the Glen even though I'm signed off in White I'll be asking someone to come along at least a few times, you can ALWAYS benefit from instruction or a different perspective ...
06-16-2008, 09:59 PM
#34
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Interesting to always hear how most of you came up. For me, my first track day was the debut of Firebird in Phoenix as a road course. No instruction, nothing. Just go drive. Had a Showroom Stock RX-7 on loan for the winter. Second event was an SCCA licensing school two weeks later. Instruction, as mentioned above, was via corner observers. (Got to dice it out with a GT-1 car for the overall race group win......now THAT was interesting.)
That said, I had three years of extensive crewing (and crew chiefing that RX-7), so none of the peripheral stuff was foreign to me. In some ways, I think someone new should observe for an event or two before they even hit the track. Not that you'll ever see that happen.......
That said, I had three years of extensive crewing (and crew chiefing that RX-7), so none of the peripheral stuff was foreign to me. In some ways, I think someone new should observe for an event or two before they even hit the track. Not that you'll ever see that happen.......
06-16-2008, 10:08 PM
#35
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I found that to be of IMMEASURABLE value. I had never driven on track when I was down at the DE + Porsche Clash in 2003 - and then I went to quite a number of other DEs to watch in 04-05 (thanks mostly to Chris White) and got a few rides w/ instructors - when I did finally venture out on track it was nice to just worry about driving and not "what is expected of me / what should I be doing today" stuff.
06-16-2008, 11:04 PM
#36
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Let me add my 2 cents worth. First off, thanks to the Blue Ridge region for a great weekend. I'm a relatively experienced instructor (Peachstate) but chose to register for the event as a regular driver as it was my first time at CAMP. The event was well run, efficient and always under control. I can't think of Road Atlanta of Barber event when there haven't been damaged cars; but this was a completely safe event - an increasingly rare event in my experience. I did talk with a couple of students who, on Sunday afternoon, were allowed to run solo in their group. Both had very mature attitudes and understood they were just at the beginning of their DE 'career', and wanted to be instructed next time. Event the 'vette driver was more interested in asking questions on braking points , rather then boasting how fast his car was!!
06-17-2008, 08:34 AM
#37
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To add to the other post. I thought back and in the last 3 years of almost 100% 0.0 Green students I have offered solo runs to 2. I also don't like to have low hour students solo the last run. I ride with them on the last one to send them home with a clean solid base to remember. It depends on the student 100%. It might not be true but last runs seem to have a higher % of flatbed finishes.
+1 on getting people in your right seat from time to time. We all collect little habits good and bad. A fresh perspective can see and help with the bad ones and add good ones.
+1 on getting people in your right seat from time to time. We all collect little habits good and bad. A fresh perspective can see and help with the bad ones and add good ones.
06-17-2008, 09:21 AM
#38
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Hi again Jack,
I knew the topic of soloing a Green student was very familiar to me. So much so, a while ago, I was to have a chief instructor that wanted to do this at one of our DEs - we said no. (I have a safety steward that will not allow this.) The CI felt that some greens are capable - and put limits on it - like they needed 3 to 4 weekends of DE behind them... our attitude was, most of our greens are new to 1 DE on the track -- and if they are that good, we put them into Blue with an instructor... the debate went back and forth - and I ended up here -- and started a thread about it. Here's the link if you have interest:
https://rennlist.com/forums/racing-and-drivers-education-forum/410756-solo-in-green-at-driver-eds.html
There are at 2 sides to every debate, and every person brings their own opinion... shades of gray....
I knew the topic of soloing a Green student was very familiar to me. So much so, a while ago, I was to have a chief instructor that wanted to do this at one of our DEs - we said no. (I have a safety steward that will not allow this.) The CI felt that some greens are capable - and put limits on it - like they needed 3 to 4 weekends of DE behind them... our attitude was, most of our greens are new to 1 DE on the track -- and if they are that good, we put them into Blue with an instructor... the debate went back and forth - and I ended up here -- and started a thread about it. Here's the link if you have interest:
https://rennlist.com/forums/racing-and-drivers-education-forum/410756-solo-in-green-at-driver-eds.html
There are at 2 sides to every debate, and every person brings their own opinion... shades of gray....
06-17-2008, 01:03 PM
#39
Three Wheelin'
Newbie input - first DE a month ago (low speed track) and was signed off for last session. Second DE last week was signed off for the last two sessions but asked to have a very experienced instructor racer ride with me. Glad I did -prefer to stay humble and maximize the learning process. He worked with me to be on where to be more aggressive while working on vision, (where to look and when) and brake modulation.
I will say that making major improvements to my suspension and seating after the first event allowed me to focus more on putting the car where I wanted it.
There is soo much to take in even if you have some talent.
Help, I'm hooked.
I will say that making major improvements to my suspension and seating after the first event allowed me to focus more on putting the car where I wanted it.
There is soo much to take in even if you have some talent.
Help, I'm hooked.
06-17-2008, 02:39 PM
#41
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I understand that it's very easy to criticize other regions' DEs when they don't run them exactly as your region does.
At CMP this past weekend, I did get the extra wrist band for my Green student (a first-timer on track) to solo on Sunday afternoon, but I kept it in my pocket, going out with him until he said he'd had enough; giving up his last session of the day. I've instructed with 4 different regions; all of which rely on instructor discretion as to when the student is ready to solo in the assigned run group.
There was one added complexity at CMP this past weekend not yet mentioned; because some people were starting to leave early Sunday afternoon, the last two run sessions for each group were combined run sessions. Thus, Red, Black, and White all ran together twice, and Blue and Green ran together twice. In my judgment, this was not a good time to cut a Greenie loose on his own. We were not only passed by more cars than usual, the cars from Blue closed on us much quicker, and got by us much quicker. The combined session may have been a factor in my student's decision to hang it up for the weekend. Thus, signing off a Greenie to solo just when combined sessions with a more advanced group are coming up is probably not a good idea.
From what I saw and heard, most of the offs and spins were in the "instructor groups", as usual.
At CMP this past weekend, I did get the extra wrist band for my Green student (a first-timer on track) to solo on Sunday afternoon, but I kept it in my pocket, going out with him until he said he'd had enough; giving up his last session of the day. I've instructed with 4 different regions; all of which rely on instructor discretion as to when the student is ready to solo in the assigned run group.
There was one added complexity at CMP this past weekend not yet mentioned; because some people were starting to leave early Sunday afternoon, the last two run sessions for each group were combined run sessions. Thus, Red, Black, and White all ran together twice, and Blue and Green ran together twice. In my judgment, this was not a good time to cut a Greenie loose on his own. We were not only passed by more cars than usual, the cars from Blue closed on us much quicker, and got by us much quicker. The combined session may have been a factor in my student's decision to hang it up for the weekend. Thus, signing off a Greenie to solo just when combined sessions with a more advanced group are coming up is probably not a good idea.
From what I saw and heard, most of the offs and spins were in the "instructor groups", as usual.
06-17-2008, 05:15 PM
#43
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06-17-2008, 05:42 PM
#44
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I was in Blue - early sign off tho - but same car I've driven at every single DE I've attended: my 350z (with VDC off of course).
That would seem to make sense - you're just moving up in speed and confidence, more people are getting faster, learning what happens when it goes beyond "a little slip angle" to "oh crap, loose" - and without the experience of Black / Red.
That would seem to make sense - you're just moving up in speed and confidence, more people are getting faster, learning what happens when it goes beyond "a little slip angle" to "oh crap, loose" - and without the experience of Black / Red.
06-17-2008, 06:22 PM
#45
Man I saw this thread when it first popped up and knew it was going to get interesting...
It's understandable that a student would get so excited after his first ever event, and getting signed off for a couple of sessions, to him, was a big accomplishment. I don't think anyone who'se ever been in his shoes would look back and see any different, at that time.
Looking back in two years he'll shake his head and think how lucky he was that sensory overload didn't take over and put him off course and in a bad situation. This is a risk, a gamble and one that I think should be taken in Blue run group, not green.
Being a student myself, I think one of the best things PCA does is reel us in. I can go out in white run group and give them hell on a course I know and am familiar with. Should I do that at a course I run at maybe once a year, like Watkins Glen? Hmmm Don't know... Do I "want to" be able to do it? Sure. Should I? Certainly not the first several sessions of the first day, and maybe not the whole weekend if i can't "put it together".
This is the one thing I LOVE about PCA. Do I get frustrated from time to time with some aspects? Sure, no club is "perfect." But PCA is damned close...
One of you instructor types asked how you'd be handled if you were an out-of-towners... At the Last event I attended at First Settlers, an instructor from Arkansas walked up pit row and asked me if it was OK for him to ride with me for familiarization laps. I was humbled that the guy would ask to ride in my car, and was very pleased when the only comment he made was to quit being so nice by taking my hand off the wheel to wave as I passed guys... I guess I'm getting quick enough that those brief moments of kindness are slowing the mechanics of setting up for the next turn!
Getting a ride with guys in White is a great way to get familiarized with the track at "above" novice speeds. Certainly hopping in with the guys in another instructor run group would be worthwhile as well, but this particular instructor enjoyed his sessions riding shotgun in white. The fact that he's also a 996TT guy was a bonus for both of us!
Mike
It's understandable that a student would get so excited after his first ever event, and getting signed off for a couple of sessions, to him, was a big accomplishment. I don't think anyone who'se ever been in his shoes would look back and see any different, at that time.
Looking back in two years he'll shake his head and think how lucky he was that sensory overload didn't take over and put him off course and in a bad situation. This is a risk, a gamble and one that I think should be taken in Blue run group, not green.
Being a student myself, I think one of the best things PCA does is reel us in. I can go out in white run group and give them hell on a course I know and am familiar with. Should I do that at a course I run at maybe once a year, like Watkins Glen? Hmmm Don't know... Do I "want to" be able to do it? Sure. Should I? Certainly not the first several sessions of the first day, and maybe not the whole weekend if i can't "put it together".
This is the one thing I LOVE about PCA. Do I get frustrated from time to time with some aspects? Sure, no club is "perfect." But PCA is damned close...
One of you instructor types asked how you'd be handled if you were an out-of-towners... At the Last event I attended at First Settlers, an instructor from Arkansas walked up pit row and asked me if it was OK for him to ride with me for familiarization laps. I was humbled that the guy would ask to ride in my car, and was very pleased when the only comment he made was to quit being so nice by taking my hand off the wheel to wave as I passed guys... I guess I'm getting quick enough that those brief moments of kindness are slowing the mechanics of setting up for the next turn!
Getting a ride with guys in White is a great way to get familiarized with the track at "above" novice speeds. Certainly hopping in with the guys in another instructor run group would be worthwhile as well, but this particular instructor enjoyed his sessions riding shotgun in white. The fact that he's also a 996TT guy was a bonus for both of us!
Mike