J Silverman

The DE I attended for my first and only trip to RA was short on instructors. SO much that anyone with any type of on track experience over 7 days(I had about 15 days of experience at this point) was placed in the advanced group. About half of the instructors had never driven the track before, so they put them in the passenger seats of the advanced students to learn the track for the first run of the weekend. I was in a new car, running at a track Id never driven, with an instructor in my car that had never even seen the track before. Talk about an eye opening experience, LOL. The first time I came under the bridge and over the hill I thought I was going to go straight off the track. Despite the total lack of organization on the part of the club hosting the event, it was still the best/most fun weekend Ive ever had at a track. Something about learning a new track mostly on my own felt good. It didnt hurt that after we finished our last runs on sunday we headed out for VIR for a mon-tues event.

James-man

Great to hear you had a good time. There are TONS of track day opportunities out there. Hope to see you out there!

Tom N

[QUOTE=shiners780;5514081]Could be that he got signed off to go solo for one or two sessions on day two? That happened to me at my first DE. Day two sessions = instructor/solo/instructor/solo. While I have never asked to go out solo, I have never had an instructor in the car for every single session at any DE I have attended. Every instructor I had let me go out for at least some sessions by myself. (Maybe they just couldn't wait to get out of the car? )

This was the situation at this event. Green student exhibits good car control, track awareness, good judgement, etc. and is signed off to solo after 4 instructed sessions Saturday and 2 instructed sessions Sunday morning with a different instructor. (Ask me how I know)

This is not Green student moved to White (first solo group here in the South) after one day of DE. It is Green student taking what he has learned and doing it without distraction for a session or 2.

I agree completly that more time spent with a coach in the right seat hastens the learning curve. I also think that driving by yourself a session and then going back out with an instuctor helps as well.

I would not, and I would hope anyone would not, sign off a student to go solo for any session unless the instuctor would feel safe driving on the track immeadiatly in front of or behind the student.

mrbill_fl

At SCCA events I instructed students from the turns and pit lane. never getting in the car. (critique b/t sessions and pit lane), it was not a DE, but a racing school...

Thats only way I can see someone going out solo with so little experience.
Short handed..... instruct from the turns and w/ radios

Patrick

Signed off to solo in the green group is not the same as being assigned to a solo group. If the driver is safe, it's not terribly unusual, and with our region in any case, it will be nowhere near the end of instruction for the student. Really, did some of you never solo until you were running in black?

looney2n

Oh Wow............................I really should have been more detailed in my post.

I was so excited about just progressing from no experience to being able to drive the track by myself, I did not think through my post carefully enough.

Details:

4 sessions on Saturday with instructor A

Sunday morning, changed instructors to get a different perspective.

2 sessions on Sunday with instructor B plus 2 sessions riding with that instructor in his class.

I get a little too excited sometimes when I make progess. But, by no means do I feel I am a Solo Class driver!!!!

I expect many, many more days of learning (with and without instructor) before I have the ability or experience to be moved up any classification.

Again, thanks for all of your responses and I appoligize for not being more detailed in my post...............I have learned another tip right here!!!

RJay

I never solo'd until I was promoted to a solo run group. I understood precisely what happened in this case, I didnt think that the driver had been promoted, merely that he was allowed to go out on the track on his own after a little over an hour of instruction in a car with big hp, capable of speeds well in excess of what this driver would be likely to be able to handle.

Yes, there are a number of regions where this practice is allowed. A debate about whether this is a good or idea or not is probably a worthy one, but frankly we are talking about someone who had been at this for one single day. How much information do we believe a student can retain after a single day's instruction? They'll have the line down? They'll understand how to be smooth? They'll keep both hands on the wheel at 9 & 3, hand off the shifter and be able to manage traffic or wave off a pass if its too late? And given the excitement of a very first day on track do you think that students retain more info or is it a certainty that with notions of run groups, waivers, guard rails, lines, will I wreck my car, what tire pressure etc crowding their heads they retain virtually nothing? As a learning experience, was the student better served by soloing or having a second day of instruction to solidify the lessons of the first day? And lets just imagine, from a club perspective, that the unthinkable happens, some one drops oil, a tire goes down or the student just plain screws up and theres a incident. There wont be any second guessing?

By the authors admission he was jerking it and had to be told to smooth it out. Do any of us believe that, and I'm guessing here that anyone who owns a new 997 has been driving for many years, this is a habit that is broken in less than an hour and a half? No backsliding is at all possible? IMO, and its only an opinion, releasing a student with no prior experience other than street driving, to solo in the company of others with similar experience level is risky and serves no ones best interests. It also can serve to promote a very bad set of expectations around the students capabilities and the rapidity of advancement. In this context is it any wonder that we wind up with some black and even red run group drivers who consistently are 2-4 feet of apexes, unable to manage traffic or to give passing signals?

DarkSideDE

That sounds a bit more plausible. Some regions do let Greens solo. I thought I'd write one more time to let you know not all DEs are like that. Many DEs are run that when a Green student is showing promise - they are moved to Blue. With us, it is a matter of safety first - our motto for too long has been "the safety of all - not the fun of one."

Now you have to go out and try the other DEs - other tracks - other instructors... It's a whole big DE world out there. I use to take photos of the Green students when they came off their very first track sessions - sometimes the smiles were so wide -- I couldn't get the whole smile into the picture! I have a feeling you would have been one of those photos.

Enjoy -

looney2n

Yes..............it sure was fun and I may have had a great big smile on my face, but......................I am the first to realize how serious the SAFETY factor is!!!!

On my personal behalf, I take the handling of my car very seriously and have the greatest of respect for power that is "over my head".

Yes, driving on the track is fun, but I will continue to practice the highest of safety habits and continue to learn.

By no means do I want to be cleared for Solo before I am ready.

I want all of you guys/gals out there to realize that I was not feeling like I had "concurred the mountain" in any way. I will always hold the utmost of respect for the car, the track and safety of the other drivers!!!!

race911

For all you guys who want to live in the perfect bubble of a perfect event..........how many times have YOU run (and I mean personally put one on)............where you were short on instructors, no matter how hard you pleaded or enticed? Last minute cancellations/car not ready/kid has a soccer game. Canceled it on the eve of the event? Shut the thing down? Or work with what you've got? Thought so........

I'm due for one on Friday, and I have pure hell the next 3 days so I can get out of here dawn Thursday AM to have a day prepping and be fully ready to tend to whatever I have to do on Friday. Oh, and a little bit of seat time will be a bonus!

smlporsche

WOW >>>

Looney - I'm glad you had a great time at our event at CMP this weekend. PM sent.

For the rest of you, let me give you some perspective as I was the registrar for the event....

We had about 70 drivers in this event divided into 5 run groups (green, blue, white(solo), black & red).

Most of the green students were very green having little or no experience and that is the group that we placed our most experienced instructors with. In contrast most of the blue students had a fair amount of experience and many were signed off to go solo (still in blue) after the first day.

As you remember me pleading here on Rennlist (as well as other places) we were in need of instructors but in the end and with the support of our instructor core (some of whom had 2 students) were were able to have a very safe and enjoyable event.

To our credit we only had 4 incidences (that I know of) where we had 2 wheels off and ALL of those were with the instructor groups. We had no 4 wheel offs except for an instructor whose tire was going flat so he drove the car off the track next to a corner worker on purpose. We had NO car to car or car to object contact and everybody drove home what they brought in one piece. In my experience this is becomming a rare occurance.

I (as well as several other instructors in our club) drove in every run group on multiple occassions to monitor the behavior of the drivers and we all came back with very high comments as to the behavior of each class. This is something that I do not see in other DE's although I just may not be aware of it.

As stated above the run groups were only about half full and this was a rare opportunity for the students to really practice their skills without having to worry about traffic. The configuration of CMP is such that you can get alot of laps in a run session and really focus on improving your skills as opposed to a larger track like VIR where the learning curve is longer IMHO.

While I do not know the specific details in this case I will tell you that it is very rare for a green student to get signed off to solo and it was not a case of not having enough instructors stay until the end of the day as there were several instructors w/out students on Sunday afternoon.

Overall, we had alot of positive comments and I think everyone had a safe and very enjoyable time. I know my first time student did (and I did not sign him off) and in the end that is what it's all about.

Comments??

F350Lawman

I was in a similar situation a few weeks ago w/ a diff. organization. I was on a (reportedly) easy layout at Pocono North and did 5 - 25 minute sessions w/ an instructor, 1- session as a passenger w/ the instructor in A/B group and 1- session as a passenger with an advanced driver in the C/X group. After driving my 5th instructed session, and 2- runs as a passenger (learning there too)the instructor asked if I thought I could go out and run myself. He joked "don't embarrass me", and I assured him I would be even more safety concious w/o him. It went fine.

He signed me off for A/B group and I am going back this week and specified that I wanted an instructor to learn more. I would think that possibly they might allow the same routine... if I drive well over several instructed sessions maybe I go out on my own at the end of the day.

What I found was that not having the "crutch" of the instructor was a helpful experience. My instructor gave constant commentary and verbal input (which I liked), so w/o that it was different out there on your own. My instructor was very good but almost made it too easy with his very on point instruction...does that make sense??? I found where my weaknesses wer equickly when someone didn't immediately give input...brake...full throttle...turn-in...good...bad...OK, etc. Now granted, if someone is a dope they could get into big trouble being on their own, so I guess the instructor must realize if the driver is level-headed enough to stay within their own and the cars capabilities. Either way, I think for 1- session I might ask for zero input until after the session (unless its something dangerous) to get a feel for making all of your own judgements. You get to see how you wonder back into bad habits, pick-up new ones this way???

kurt M

I was signed off for Sunday afternoon during my first event. I was Green/Green but was driving within my skill pool and had a blast running around on a track in a Porsche by myself for the first time. Some students show enough mental preservation of self and those around them that it is not too risky to let them have a run by themselves. Yes there is lost instruction time but there is also the reliance factor to consider. I think some students get used to the right seat bailing them out and will drive well with instructor but not so well when alone. IMO letting students, even slect Green ones, drive by themselves sometimes makes for a more well rounded driver overall. I have offered first weekend students the chance to drive by themselves if I see that they are getting it and using the nut in the helmet. It is always presented as an offer. "I think you are driving well enough to take the car out by yourself if you would like to. Your choice, you can zone in or we can work on (fill in the blank) some more. If you go out solo I am going to go to corner XX and watch you for a few laps." If they are goingto solo they get the "While you are solo be sure to ...bla bla bla." Corner XX is aways the weakest corner and sometimes I do go and watch. I also have had plenty of students in upper instructed groups that don't get the offer as they are in need of something that I have to offer.

smlporsche

Good comments.

With my student this weekend who may have been the "greenest" of all on Sunday afternoon I had him talk to me telling me what he was, or was going to do instead of me telling him to turn in etc. It quickly becam apparent that he was driving the car for what was immediately in front of him instead of 100+ yds in front of him and once he realized this started looking further forward (although I had been preaching this since the first session).

F350Lawman

Thanks, yeah the give and take is funny. I talk alot too, so between me and the instructor there was ZERO dead air. I was always..damn too fast...bad shift...too slow...I pinched..etc. Half way through bobbles I was saying "I got it.. don't worry" (it was raining so there wer several recoveries).