PCA Harness Rule - 5 year life
05-22-2008, 06:29 PM
#31
Three Wheelin'
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Orlando, FL USA
Posts: 1,262
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
...When you add all this up how many people other than me just throw their hands up and say, "Screw it." ...
Don't get me wrong we want EVERYONE to be as safe and well cared for as possible, but you can NOT take all the risk out of this hobby. Where do you draw the line? What is logical?...
James
Austin, TX
Don't get me wrong we want EVERYONE to be as safe and well cared for as possible, but you can NOT take all the risk out of this hobby. Where do you draw the line? What is logical?...
James
Austin, TX
What is logical is to let the belt manufacturer tell you when the belts expire. After all, they designed and made the product and it is in their best interest to convince you that they offer the best combination of safety and value--and not cause the demise of a repeat customer.
What is logical is to give racers and alternative to SFI, where the manufacturers write the specs.
Tell the PCA that you want to include RSI along with FIA and SFI certification.
http://www.racingsafetyinstitute.org/Harnesses.html
05-22-2008, 07:50 PM
#32
Nordschleife Master
^^^^^
Not sure letting a manufacturer call the shots on replacement times is the best plan... It really depends on use and condition, I know, but still 5 years on belts and 10 on a helmet might be a little short. I mean is my helmet from '98 really going to function poorly in an impact having been stored indoors in climate controlled conditions other than when it is on my head at the track.
I don't know but I suspect the manufacturers would LOVE for you to replace ALL your gear every year! What a boon for them that would be!
Not sure letting a manufacturer call the shots on replacement times is the best plan... It really depends on use and condition, I know, but still 5 years on belts and 10 on a helmet might be a little short. I mean is my helmet from '98 really going to function poorly in an impact having been stored indoors in climate controlled conditions other than when it is on my head at the track.
I don't know but I suspect the manufacturers would LOVE for you to replace ALL your gear every year! What a boon for them that would be!
05-22-2008, 08:24 PM
#35
Addict
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Then why not 4 years or 3 years...2...1...? Because somebody said 5? NASA says 2!
05-22-2008, 10:04 PM
#36
Rennlist Member
I had this discussion with our local techs as well, its a bunch of money to spend, I just replaced a set of belts, and am looking at the date on the other car as well. Hope you can do something with it.
The real issue is not the uv rating or the "expiration date" but that the belt manufactures only can test to SFI (3years) or FIA (5 year) certification. Because they are not OEM, they can't be tested to DOT standards which is the lifetime of the webbing in good condition. Most of the time the webbing is exactly the same material that factory belts use. So now the question is, if you are NASA, SCCA or PCA do you use a approved certification as limited as it is? or do you take on the liability of an "arbitrary" lifespan? You see the same things on FAA certification on aircraft parts, they may test fine, but they are beyond the tested lifespan and have to be retired regardless. The military "MIL. spec" for the design of parts means they are designed and tested for that lifespan.
So don't get me wrong, in my opinion if I'm the one taking the risk (unless we are talking a passenger) and assuming the liabilty, then a "outdated" set of belts in good order are better than a factory 3 point, I know what I would be sitting in. But then you've got the same issue on Seats, nets, helmets, suits, shoes and gloves....I'd love a different option.
The real issue is not the uv rating or the "expiration date" but that the belt manufactures only can test to SFI (3years) or FIA (5 year) certification. Because they are not OEM, they can't be tested to DOT standards which is the lifetime of the webbing in good condition. Most of the time the webbing is exactly the same material that factory belts use. So now the question is, if you are NASA, SCCA or PCA do you use a approved certification as limited as it is? or do you take on the liability of an "arbitrary" lifespan? You see the same things on FAA certification on aircraft parts, they may test fine, but they are beyond the tested lifespan and have to be retired regardless. The military "MIL. spec" for the design of parts means they are designed and tested for that lifespan.
So don't get me wrong, in my opinion if I'm the one taking the risk (unless we are talking a passenger) and assuming the liabilty, then a "outdated" set of belts in good order are better than a factory 3 point, I know what I would be sitting in. But then you've got the same issue on Seats, nets, helmets, suits, shoes and gloves....I'd love a different option.
05-23-2008, 12:33 PM
#37
Still plays with cars.
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Thread Starter
Latest from Pete Tremper: the Porsche Club Sport kit (seats harness roll bar etc) is considered factory OEM equipment and exempt from the 5 year rule.
05-23-2008, 01:00 PM
#38
Owns the Streets
Needs Camber
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Needs Camber
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Haven't read through this thread so I don't know if this was addressed already.
My last car was an Audi 5000s (1987) and I vaguely remember their recommendation of
10 year replacement interval for their street seatbelt.
Their worry was for dry rot of the webbing.
Another spurious data point.
Has anyone subjected older factory webbing to test for failure?
The car is not a very material friendly environment.
My last car was an Audi 5000s (1987) and I vaguely remember their recommendation of
10 year replacement interval for their street seatbelt.
Their worry was for dry rot of the webbing.
Another spurious data point.
Has anyone subjected older factory webbing to test for failure?
The car is not a very material friendly environment.
05-23-2008, 03:12 PM
#39
As a simple DE guy getting ready to make the step to a harness, I am glad that this is being brought up by more seasoned folks. I plan on setting my 993 with a 5/6 point done right, mounted to the chassis. But the 5 year rule really puts a damper on my plans. I will still follow through with it, but will simply choose to attend other schools other than PCA after 5 years. Doesn't really matter who's schools I attend in the area as the instructor pool is the same regardless. If I do a BMW school for example, I will still be matched up with a local PCA 911 guy. Funny that the BMWCCA will not allow convertibles with factory roll over protection but the PCA will and yet the PCA has this hang up with harnesses.
05-23-2008, 03:29 PM
#40
Rennlist Member
Sigh....
05-24-2008, 01:01 AM
#42
Another former PCA Tech chair also chiming in thinking that the rule is counter productive. It causes money to be spent replacing a good safety system that could have gone to adding another system such as a fire suppression system. I have already seen a set of belts be removed and not replaced due to this rule. They were 2 years in the box and 3 years in the car that saw perhaps 100 days outdoors over 3 years. In 8+ years as a tech inspector or tech chair I failed 2 sets for sun related damage. On the other hand I have had to fail or help rework countless sets that were not installed well.
PCA tech inspectors already have to qualify the condition of the stock belts why not let them do the same to the added belts? Belts get bleached and the fibers harden with sun damage. This can be determined just like worn tires, cracked rotors or low brake pads can. 5 years can be too long for an open car kept in the AZ sun or too short for a northern reaches car that is exposed to far less UV. Put it back in the hands of the inspectors just like the rest of the safety items already are.
I feel that the PCA DE belt was made in good faith but as with many things, it has had some unintended results.
PCA tech inspectors already have to qualify the condition of the stock belts why not let them do the same to the added belts? Belts get bleached and the fibers harden with sun damage. This can be determined just like worn tires, cracked rotors or low brake pads can. 5 years can be too long for an open car kept in the AZ sun or too short for a northern reaches car that is exposed to far less UV. Put it back in the hands of the inspectors just like the rest of the safety items already are.
I feel that the PCA DE belt was made in good faith but as with many things, it has had some unintended results.
Thanks. I think you should forward this to the PCA rules link above.
05-24-2008, 10:32 AM
#43
Nordschleife Master
My Schroth has an Oct 2003 manufacturing tag, so technically it's obsolete at the end of this year. Worse comes to worse, I can use the 3 points or buy the Porsche 6 point. Do the Porsche kit 6 point belts have no tags? Or they do but are just disregarded?
05-24-2008, 10:49 AM
#44
Administrator - "Tyson"
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
So there's your answer
05-24-2008, 06:07 PM
#45
I certainly agree with the objections here from a DE perspective, and I consider the 5-year replacement rule arbitrary since the 5-year requirement and the requirement to pass them through a slotted seat are the ONLY requirements being enforced for DE. It does not make sense from an overall safety persepctive. There are no other related safety definitions for DE. There are NO belt certifications required (don't have to be SFI or FIA, can be any 5-point harness). You can buy cheap no-name harnesses if you want and probably be less safe than OEM belts....oooh, but you better replace after 5-years.
Slotted seats - again, no ratings required, no mounting requirements, etc. You can buy fiberglass shells on ebay and mount them on single-locking sliders and have them flexing all over the place (already seen it in DE cars since the new rules) as long as they have slots to pass the belts through.
No, I'm personally not cheaping out on safety equipment, I upgraded mounts, etc but the implementation of just a few partial rules just doesn't make sense.
It is purely just liability to carry-over the manufacturer's info (whether it be OEM lifetime, or harness manufacturer 5-year irregardless of whether they are used only a few days in DE or in racing.)
Most DE folks are afraid that PCA will gradually carry over more Club Racing requirements to DE. Then we'll just have to start doing track days / DE with clubs other than PCA.......
Slotted seats - again, no ratings required, no mounting requirements, etc. You can buy fiberglass shells on ebay and mount them on single-locking sliders and have them flexing all over the place (already seen it in DE cars since the new rules) as long as they have slots to pass the belts through.
No, I'm personally not cheaping out on safety equipment, I upgraded mounts, etc but the implementation of just a few partial rules just doesn't make sense.
It is purely just liability to carry-over the manufacturer's info (whether it be OEM lifetime, or harness manufacturer 5-year irregardless of whether they are used only a few days in DE or in racing.)
Most DE folks are afraid that PCA will gradually carry over more Club Racing requirements to DE. Then we'll just have to start doing track days / DE with clubs other than PCA.......