Mark in Baltimore

Why throw away something that is still safe and doing the job it was designed to do, based simply on an arbitrary rule?

Matt Lane

Bob, good post.

Echoes my thoughts exactly. I've loved the strange contrast of early 70's rusty longhoods and 914's running around at DE with prehistoric (safe?) OE belts, while fresh, maintained and certified aftermarket belts are a 5 year throwaway. Just doesn't make sense.

My $0.02

Matt

Jarez Mifkin

Why drink milk that is two weeks past its 'best by' date? It still looks like milk from outside the jug. The arbitrary rule is based on what is in the CR rules as well as standards set by the harness industry. If they say not vaild after 2012, why would you use them? I don't see how DE and CR should differ on this. If a belt expires after 5 years and I can't use it for CR, which has a higher chance of an accident then DE does, then why would you want to use that same belt for 5 more years? Sorry, it just bothers me that people want to go cheap on safety equipment, but are gung ho on go fast goodies.

TheOtherEric

Bravo Bob. If this stupid rule still stands next season, I'm done with PCA events because my harnesses will be 5 years old and I'm not about to spend $700 to replace harnesses that are in excellent condition.

Matt Lane

I guess the issue is that many believe that if OE belts were held to the same objective standard as competition belts, they would be found to be no better at a given age. In fact, they'd likely be far worse on account of spending much of their life exposed to UV and degradation from repeated use.

Thus by extension, if we all feel comfortable driving around in model year 2003 and older cars with original belts, we'd logically be just as comfortable with certified harnesses of like condition. The real concern, in my opinion, is condition - not age.

I don't see this as a saving money thing at all. Same as why I don't change my oil every week; it is not necessary.

Matt

shiners780

Who determined that belts "expire" at five years? The manufacturers who $ell the product?

Jarez Mifkin

Wow...Ok, I'm out of this discussion. Blows my mind.

DaveM993

OK maybe I am missing something here. I don't think this is about people wanting to use 6 year old belts. I think the point is the PCA rule does not comport with common sense regarding safety. They OK a 20 year old 3 point OE belt but not a 6 year old harness... In my view the rule may lead to people continuing to use a 20 year old three point belt when they otherwise would use a 5-6 point harness. I may certainly be wrong...but from a pure safety perspective...it does not make sense. So why do they have it? In my view...as I said earlier - LIABILITY. Frankly that is what needs to be addressed.

and again YMMV.

Mark in Baltimore

I think this is an extremely valid and commonsense question.

kurt M

Another former PCA Tech chair also chiming in thinking that the rule is counter productive. It causes money to be spent replacing a good safety system that could have gone to adding another system such as a fire suppression system. I have already seen a set of belts be removed and not replaced due to this rule. They were 2 years in the box and 3 years in the car that saw perhaps 100 days outdoors over 3 years. In 8+ years as a tech inspector or tech chair I failed 2 sets for sun related damage. On the other hand I have had to fail or help rework countless sets that were not installed well.

PCA tech inspectors already have to qualify the condition of the stock belts why not let them do the same to the added belts? Belts get bleached and the fibers harden with sun damage. This can be determined just like worn tires, cracked rotors or low brake pads can. 5 years can be too long for an open car kept in the AZ sun or too short for a northern reaches car that is exposed to far less UV. Put it back in the hands of the inspectors just like the rest of the safety items already are.

I feel that the PCA DE belt was made in good faith but as with many things, it has had some unintended results.

sbelles

I agree that the new rule is arbitrary but it's better then the NASA rule. My harnesses are five years old but one set spent four of the last five years in the box (never installed until this year). The Poly vs nylon argument seems to be mostly moot now since all the major brands are using poly. What's really going to hurt is when I have to replace both seats!

Oh well, time to suck it up. My helmet also expires next year. Anybody have a recommendation on where to purchase harnesses, helmet and a HANS at a reasonable price?

Bob Rouleau

Davem993, Kurt et al, Thanks for understanding the point. Jmorris, you missed it completely.

Here I was sitting in a 996 GT3. The owner got the car in 2003 (called a 2004 but the cars were delivered in 2003 as a 2004 model. He installed the FACTORY Club Sport kit, consisting of seats, roll bar, harnesses (Scroth). If I followed the rule, I would have had to wear the 5 year old 3 point belt instead of the perfectly fine FACTORY harness. The car had 41,000 KM (less than 25,000 miles) and saw the light of day about 40-50 days per year. Up here, track cars are stored for the winter so they don't get a lot of UV exposure in any event.

Do you really think that wearing the five year old three point belt makes sense from a safety standpoint? If so, I agree you should withdraw from the discussion.

In anything but a car with the factory club sport package (you know the one which is standard in all GT3s except those in North America, I will wear the OEM three pointer because I am more confident that they will work. I am suspicious of harness installations unless done by a well qualified shop. I have seen some which are bolted through the floor pan secured by a washer about one inch in diameter.

To whomever said this is a case where in the attempt to avoid liability we actually compromise safety, I agree. We have to do better than this. I have a sneaking $uspicion that the harness guys decided to get in on the "periodic replacement" game like the helmet guys.

As the rule stands a 4 year old harness which is poorly installed and perhaps worn due to rubbing is safe whereas a five year old one which looks like new is not. Worse,a 30 year old three point belt is "safe". Sure.

pcar928fan

If there was no date on the Milk you would not be able to tell if it was a day old or 3 weeks old! Same with well cared for belts in protected cars. My belts are 10 years old now maybe...maybe just 8 the car has been in a garage and when at the track under cover in the paddock, I probably don't have 4 or 5 hours track time on the car, so that is how much exposure my belts have had... Should I have to replace them? They are FREAKING PERFECT! If I took them out you would think they were new...THEY ARE!

Sure what is a few hundred bucks on that. Then lets throw in about $800 for a now REQUIRED HANS device...Oh, got to get your helmet set up...another $60 including shipping, Oh, wait when was the last time your on board fire system was checked and filled, throw that in, $200. Right the last time you raced the tech guy said your foam around your head on your roll cage is not thick enough, gotta replace that too. $100???

When you add all this up how many people other than me just throw their hands up and say, "Screw it." Is my race car safer than DE'ing my street car? HELL YEA! Is my race car faster than my street car...NOT BY MUCH! My street car is faster than many of the afore mentioned 914 GT cars, etc. too...

Don't get me wrong we want EVERYONE to be as safe and well cared for as possible, but you can NOT take all the risk out of this hobby. Where do you draw the line? What is logical? What is over kill? Is it not the racer that should determine THEIR level of comfort with their safety devices? Sure you can't endanger other drivers with an unsafe car, but some of this is just over the top!

If you are going to say, you have to replace all this stuff after a certain amount of time, why not race suits. Gotta replace that $1300 suit every 5 years... How about a full dismantle of the car to check for rust and be sure the cage is still up to spec every 5 or 10 years? How about a new fuel cell every 3 years? Why not, it would be safer right???!!!

YMMV!
James
Austin, TX

Sean F

when I switched from the factory belts to my harnesses in my 1982 SC, I found that there was a good sized tear in the original factory belt just inside the spooling mechanism...yikes.

Mark in Baltimore

I have a new website I just finished:


http://www.sendyouroldunsaferacingstufftomeeverythreeyearsjusttobesure.com


Accepting immediate donations.

I kid, I kid!