Yellow GT3 MSR Today
#91
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Dear George, (
)
I'm not on a crusade here and you have not accused me to being on one either. But it's good to know my intention.
What I reflected on is that a 2FI can at sometimes be to a disadvantage to clear up a situation. In my book the application of "always" does include situations where you not only quickly spun out, but rather also where you have ended up in a situation where you did not anticipate that you would end up in. And I presume the anticipation is to go through a track as quick and with the least of slip as possible.
In other words, where your driving input didn't live up to your expectations in reality. This is something, to reference, that many experience often when pushing for the limit. Just as well as a PPC driver as a pro racer. If you look at a Motec file for example of descent race driver, it's clearly that the car has been beyond its limits several times during a race, but where a 2FI situation was not the cure. I say this since a 2FI is quite a hefty solution to a problem that can sometimes be corrected with both throttle, careful braking, steering input and a 2FI can give disastrous consequences.
We can have a long argument about where the limits goes between different situations and skill levels and if your knowledge is on par with its appearance, I doubt we'd be really disagreeing on much more than just the details.
Perhaps this clarifies my view on things and explains why I commented on the "always" part.
Regards
M.
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I'm not on a crusade here and you have not accused me to being on one either. But it's good to know my intention.
What I reflected on is that a 2FI can at sometimes be to a disadvantage to clear up a situation. In my book the application of "always" does include situations where you not only quickly spun out, but rather also where you have ended up in a situation where you did not anticipate that you would end up in. And I presume the anticipation is to go through a track as quick and with the least of slip as possible.
In other words, where your driving input didn't live up to your expectations in reality. This is something, to reference, that many experience often when pushing for the limit. Just as well as a PPC driver as a pro racer. If you look at a Motec file for example of descent race driver, it's clearly that the car has been beyond its limits several times during a race, but where a 2FI situation was not the cure. I say this since a 2FI is quite a hefty solution to a problem that can sometimes be corrected with both throttle, careful braking, steering input and a 2FI can give disastrous consequences.
We can have a long argument about where the limits goes between different situations and skill levels and if your knowledge is on par with its appearance, I doubt we'd be really disagreeing on much more than just the details.
Perhaps this clarifies my view on things and explains why I commented on the "always" part.
Regards
M.
There's a great video that shows an exception by Glen G. He actually applies the throttle when he's about to back into the wall at TMS. And by some stroke of luck or genius, he doesn't hit it. I think those exceptions really only apply to a select few with those skills. The 1% rule.... The rest of us should follow the rule of "always".
I'm sure I can dig up some video of when 2fi would have been bad...
G.
#92
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Magnus, The point is, if your not sure, both feet in is the best option. For a student, both feet in is the absolute and only option. Looking at Georges clips, he was pushing pretty hard and stayed ahead of the car in the correction. That is how I drive and see the same issues at least once a 25min run session. To better clarify, if the car is spinning, not pushing, not sliding, BFI is the first and main option. Spinning is not rotation, that already happened .2 secs ago.
#93
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If you look at a Motec file for example of descent race driver, it's clearly that the car has been beyond its limits several times during a race, but where a 2FI situation was not the cure. I say this since a 2FI is quite a hefty solution to a problem that can sometimes be corrected with both throttle, careful braking, steering input and a 2FI can give disastrous consequences.
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Larry Herman
2016 Ford Transit Connect Titanium LWB
2018 Tesla Model 3 - Electricity can be fun!
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Past Flames:
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2004 GT3 Track Car
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1974 914/4 2.0 Track Car
CLICK HERE to see some of my ancient racing videos.
Larry Herman
2016 Ford Transit Connect Titanium LWB
2018 Tesla Model 3 - Electricity can be fun!
Retired Club Racer & National PCA Instructor
Past Flames:
1994 RS America Club Racer
2004 GT3 Track Car
1984 911 Carrera Club Racer
1974 914/4 2.0 Track Car
CLICK HERE to see some of my ancient racing videos.
#94
Three Wheelin'
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To better clarify, if the car is spinning, not pushing, not sliding, BFI is the first and main option. Spinning is not rotation, that already happened .2 secs ago.
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Now, can we talk about something more entertaining like George's wife's underwear or why he won't get off his *** & get his car ready for TWS
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#97
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#98
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Should I post my Barber video again? And yeah, once the car went ~90 degrees, I had both feet in. That is why the engine was still running for all those minutes as I sat stationary across the track as 95% of the field came at & past me.
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#100
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The finer points are fascinating; perhaps some day I could apply them. But as a student - driving on track with other students - I want instructors to set aside the finer points and teach "always".
This clip http://www.vimeo.com/737446 illustrates just how slow the brain is at verbalizing (instructing) compared to how fast it is at sensing. Correction/Pause/Recovery can happen faster than an instructor can remind a student to put "both feet in".
- At the 3 second mark, the rear end breaks loose
- between 3 and 4 the correction is applied and completed (the car has stopped rotating, and is now simply sliding).
- between 4 and 5 is the pause between correction and recovery - I'm simply holding the correction.
- at the 5 second mark, instructor FINALLY says "both feet in". (two seconds after the rear breaks loose, and one second after the correction has already stopped the rotation). I assume that he saw it coming even before the 3 second mark.
- between 5 and 6, the recovery is completed and the steering input is back to normal. That's also about the time MY brain is finally hearing the instruction "both feet in".
- so at the 6 second mark, we're laughing at how late the "both feet in" instruction came.
The fact that I didn't technically lose control of the car, spin, or actually require both feet in is beside the point...
The point is that an instructor cannot instruct on car control during a spin in real-time... In a DE, "both feet in" as a rule in the head of the student is quicker than "both feet in" as split decision/instruction. So I hope all of you instructors continue to preach the rule so that it's embedded in the heads of me - and my fellow students!
This clip http://www.vimeo.com/737446 illustrates just how slow the brain is at verbalizing (instructing) compared to how fast it is at sensing. Correction/Pause/Recovery can happen faster than an instructor can remind a student to put "both feet in".
- At the 3 second mark, the rear end breaks loose
- between 3 and 4 the correction is applied and completed (the car has stopped rotating, and is now simply sliding).
- between 4 and 5 is the pause between correction and recovery - I'm simply holding the correction.
- at the 5 second mark, instructor FINALLY says "both feet in". (two seconds after the rear breaks loose, and one second after the correction has already stopped the rotation). I assume that he saw it coming even before the 3 second mark.
- between 5 and 6, the recovery is completed and the steering input is back to normal. That's also about the time MY brain is finally hearing the instruction "both feet in".
- so at the 6 second mark, we're laughing at how late the "both feet in" instruction came.
The fact that I didn't technically lose control of the car, spin, or actually require both feet in is beside the point...
The point is that an instructor cannot instruct on car control during a spin in real-time... In a DE, "both feet in" as a rule in the head of the student is quicker than "both feet in" as split decision/instruction. So I hope all of you instructors continue to preach the rule so that it's embedded in the heads of me - and my fellow students!
#101
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Originally Posted by Rassel
Both feet in does not always apply. Especially when you are not spinning out of control.
In general I wouldn't recommend a fairly advanced student or a club racer to always go BFI whenever they partially lost control of the car since it can make the situation worse. I'm getting a feeling that you know this already. Now we can discuss definitions of "Partially", "Always", "Fairly", "Control" and other words. But I think you know what I meant.
For those who don't understand what I've written or the situations. They surely should go BFI always - it will probably save them 90% of the cases.
So lets put an end to this discussion. It's not leading anywhere anymore, it's Friday and George has more important things to do such as get his car ready for TWS
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#104
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Yes I do, and I know that you do as well, but what we are posting is being read by people with a variety of driving skills and comprehension levels. It's not like we're having a private conversation so I try and make things OBVIOUS for anyone reading it, or I put a disclaimer...like don't try this at home.
#105
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Larry, I think that's my point also. My fear is that original poster that I took offense to now somehow has validated his incorrect opinion based on this thread. The funny part is that I think the disagreement has more to do with my use of the absolute term rather than my opinion on bfi.
Now how about some more slippin' and slidin'. Can you spot the proper use of BFI?
http://p993.net/george/SlipNSlide3.wmv
G.
Now how about some more slippin' and slidin'. Can you spot the proper use of BFI?
http://p993.net/george/SlipNSlide3.wmv
G.