George A

I completely understand your point and do believe that there are always exceptions to the rule. I hope that you see my point of the rule. The last thing I want on some DE students mind is "am I the exception?".....

There's a great video that shows an exception by Glen G. He actually applies the throttle when he's about to back into the wall at TMS. And by some stroke of luck or genius, he doesn't hit it. I think those exceptions really only apply to a select few with those skills. The 1% rule.... The rest of us should follow the rule of "always".

I'm sure I can dig up some video of when 2fi would have been bad...

G.

bobt993

Magnus, The point is, if your not sure, both feet in is the best option. For a student, both feet in is the absolute and only option. Looking at Georges clips, he was pushing pretty hard and stayed ahead of the car in the correction. That is how I drive and see the same issues at least once a 25min run session. To better clarify, if the car is spinning, not pushing, not sliding, BFI is the first and main option. Spinning is not rotation, that already happened .2 secs ago.

Larry Herman

Not to get overly critical, but this is where lack of a standard of understanding comes from. By your own definition in this example, you have not lost control of the car. If you can throttle, brake or steer out of it, you haven't lost control. 2FI when it's totally gone, beyond all hope of saving. For too many though, that point is well before it should be.

JW in Texas

EXACTLY! And I can say without question in this situation @ this corner @ this track with this driver, BFI was DEFINITELY the right answer He was in over his head @ a very bad place to be so.

Now, can we talk about something more entertaining like George's wife's underwear or why he won't get off his *** & get his car ready for TWS

Larry Herman

This is about the time I figured out that I wasn't going to catch it.



Yeah, I had both feet in.

JW in Texas

Larry, we need to buy you a compass

mglobe

Or one of these?

George A

Why you gotta be like that?

Veloce Raptor

Should I post my Barber video again? And yeah, once the car went ~90 degrees, I had both feet in. That is why the engine was still running for all those minutes as I sat stationary across the track as 95% of the field came at & past me.

ervtx

The finer points are fascinating; perhaps some day I could apply them. But as a student - driving on track with other students - I want instructors to set aside the finer points and teach "always".

This clip http://www.vimeo.com/737446 illustrates just how slow the brain is at verbalizing (instructing) compared to how fast it is at sensing. Correction/Pause/Recovery can happen faster than an instructor can remind a student to put "both feet in".

- At the 3 second mark, the rear end breaks loose

- between 3 and 4 the correction is applied and completed (the car has stopped rotating, and is now simply sliding).

- between 4 and 5 is the pause between correction and recovery - I'm simply holding the correction.

- at the 5 second mark, instructor FINALLY says "both feet in". (two seconds after the rear breaks loose, and one second after the correction has already stopped the rotation). I assume that he saw it coming even before the 3 second mark.

- between 5 and 6, the recovery is completed and the steering input is back to normal. That's also about the time MY brain is finally hearing the instruction "both feet in".

- so at the 6 second mark, we're laughing at how late the "both feet in" instruction came.

The fact that I didn't technically lose control of the car, spin, or actually require both feet in is beside the point...

The point is that an instructor cannot instruct on car control during a spin in real-time... In a DE, "both feet in" as a rule in the head of the student is quicker than "both feet in" as split decision/instruction. So I hope all of you instructors continue to preach the rule so that it's embedded in the heads of me - and my fellow students!

mglobe

Rassel

And to even better clarify, this is my original post. Please notice the "not" part.

---------------------------------------------------

Larry, if your driver input doesn't make a difference, all you can do is pray to whatever god you believe in and do a BFI. It's pretty obvious, so obvious that it's not the situation I am talking about. I think you knew that already.

In general I wouldn't recommend a fairly advanced student or a club racer to always go BFI whenever they partially lost control of the car since it can make the situation worse. I'm getting a feeling that you know this already. Now we can discuss definitions of "Partially", "Always", "Fairly", "Control" and other words. But I think you know what I meant.

For those who don't understand what I've written or the situations. They surely should go BFI always - it will probably save them 90% of the cases.

So lets put an end to this discussion. It's not leading anywhere anymore, it's Friday and George has more important things to do such as get his car ready for TWS

Rassel

George I do understand your point. If a student doesn't know how to handle the situation, clearly they shouldn't try some stunt to "fix" it. (Well not with me next to the student at least... )

Larry Herman

Yes I do, and I know that you do as well, but what we are posting is being read by people with a variety of driving skills and comprehension levels. It's not like we're having a private conversation so I try and make things OBVIOUS for anyone reading it, or I put a disclaimer...like don't try this at home.

George A

Larry, I think that's my point also. My fear is that original poster that I took offense to now somehow has validated his incorrect opinion based on this thread. The funny part is that I think the disagreement has more to do with my use of the absolute term rather than my opinion on bfi.

Now how about some more slippin' and slidin'. Can you spot the proper use of BFI?

http://p993.net/george/SlipNSlide3.wmv

G.