Rassel

Rearward bias has both advantages and problems. 50/50 is not to be used in track engineering, it's more complex than just that. A normal 911 have the same weight distribution as a Lotus Exige. However there are of course issues with the engine in the rear, just as there are ones with the engine in the front.

This was done with cut slicks, not street tires.

mglobe

Yeah, the fundamental design of the 911 never was worth a crap. It's been doomed now for what, 40+ years?

Streak

While the GT-R is no slouch and never has been, it does look like the time lost during each lap for the 997TT was at track out and turn in. The 997TT driver looked to countersteer while turning in and hanging the tail out at track out is going to scrub off seconds very quickly.

Either there was a tire issue, a driver issue or this was a bit of a show. GT-R exhibited none of those issues and we all know that a 997TT can be driving without drifting.

1AS

I appreciate the prespective, but that isn't what I said. Since I've owned 5 Porsches since 1980 (and own a 996ttX50 and an 07 Boxster now), I must feel they have done something right. What I said was that the basic architecture carries with it certain compromises, which ultimately create limiting factors in performance. One of those is weight distribution at the extremes of the chassis. Porsche has done a great job dealing with that, but other newer competitors don't have that handicap.

In future comparisons of high-end sports cars, I think these problems will be more apparant. Up until recently, there haven't been many competitors (Corvette and DeTomaso up til early 70's, then nothing until the C6 ZO6, Audi R8, and Nissan GTR- the Viper and Gt40 aren't every day cars, and Ferrari and Lamborghini are in a different price sphere)

Now, there are more choices, and the stakes go up. What I said is that it will be hard to make the current architecture keep ahead. Engine dispalcement is one issue, engine location is another. After driving a new ZO6 and 997ttSC, I kept my X50, but added a CKL63AMG Black Series. Why? Because it is acutally more fun th drive than the Porsche alternatives in that price range. Others may soon face similar decisions. Of course, the conclusions may vary. AS

BC

Its still is. :Rolleyes:

shustermeister

Tires seem to be the biggest issue here, second only to the TT driver's line. As said previously, his early in, tailslide out is clearly not the fastest line, especially when your tires have lousy grip. It looks like he's on ice on initial turn-in...
The GT-R is fast, no doubt, but the driver in the GT-R seems to be taking big advantage of a better line and stickier tires.

wanna911

Nuff said, this is apples to oranges (in terms of preperation), typical of best motoring though.

eclou

The issue is tires and alignment.

Tires:
1)stock 911's have always come under-tired in the front for track usage. Contributes alot of understeer. I don't know of too many tracked 996/997 owners who don't bump up to 245/255 in the front

2)tires on the 997tt in the video have excessive outer shoulder wear - they are shot. The GTR is on R-Comps. Not sure why you would do a run-off like that.

Alignment:
1)stock 997TT alignment specs call for a mere -0.4 camber in front. There is no high performance track-oriented car that runs so little front camber. The 997GT3 calls for -1.2 front camber on the "STREET" settings and -2.0 for "TRACK" settings. This contributes alot of understeer as well.

These two factors not surprisingly lead the professionally driven 997tt to display the initial push followed by snap throttle oversteer.

multi21

+1.

Eclou, I suspect the GTR is on R comps as well, but I don't speak Japanese, do you know for certain they are Rs?

Did everyon notice how the GTR pushed like a pig on the hairpin?

THe GTR name is legendary, but carrying 3836 lbs. just seems wrong. Sad really, not just for the GTR, but for the 911, M3 and other legends who seem to be adding #.

67FJ45

The TT would be faster. I work for a Japanese company, speak, read, and write the language, and am responsible for R&D centers in both Germany and Japan. When we compare the two centers with obective metrics, both cultures find ways to make themselves look better, including wick-turning (making the other's flame look dimmer to enhance one's own brightness).

I wonder why Porsche's race cars are RWD...

993-C4S

Hey Guys,

I posted the following article the other day on my blog http://993c4s.com/wordpress/?p=24

Here is a snippet.

Bang into 6th. Getting hairy now. It wasn’t until we hit an indicated 190 mph that the canary yellow Porsche 911 Turbo glued to my tail flashed his lights impatiently, sick of waiting. Mizuno-san reckons such a thing doesn’t exist, but we thought we’d try to find a competitor anyway.

Thought you might find it interesting given the topic.

John

333pg333

This was so obviously a set up. The Porsche looked like they had old tyres pumped up to about 50psi. Everytime that clown went near a turn, the thing started to slide and he just drifted it. Also note how ecstatic the reporters were. Quite obviously a nationalistic bias report. As someone else said earlier. Let's see the German equivalent report...

1AS

Did anybody answer the question about the return of overboost on SC-optioned cars? If the overboost power goes away after the first 10 seconds and doesn't immediately return, then the Porsche may not have a real power advantage. This is a question repeatedly ignored. It may be the real differentiator between the GT2 and the tt.
All of the comments about rubber and nationalism may be true, but one of the American car mags noted the same loss of track speed due to tail wagging. When I drove a 997tt and compare it to my 996ttX50, it is definitely more tail happy.
Obviously, we aren't going to know until there is a head-to-head test in a magazine we consider "objective", which may simply be the same as "saying whai I want to hear". AS

333pg333

Yep for sure. I agree with you. I also understand the Japanese getting excited over their car pushing and beating such an icon. The SC issue sounds valid and one that probably hasn't been focused upon as the car wasn't threatened by anyone else so it wasn't considered a problem.

Mikelly

It's no secret that Nissan used the Porsche as their benchmark to beat. I have written a few articles for Nissan based magazines and most recently for Nissan Sport. [www.nissansportmagazine.com]

They just had a huge spread in the current issue on the GT-R and the "behind the scenes" scuttlebut is the car is turning over 480HP to the wheels, not as they're listing it (ASE rated HP). They've seriously skewed the numbers. At least two of these cars have hit that whp number on the west coast, and there's already been one of these GT-Rs listed as "totaled - salvage only".

My guess is Nissan has done what they always do and played with the numbers on the car to stack the deck, and create tons of hype for marketing. They're claiming a CG of .27 and I'm not seeing it with that car. I'll have to see one in person before I can accept that as their coefficient of drag, because the car doesn't look like an aerodynamic masterpiece to me...

Mike