993-C4S

Realize this is an old thread, but thought I would post this as this never seemed to be addressed.

I had someone on my blog translate the video. According the the translation, the host of the show states at the very beginning that the tires on the 911 are used and somewhat worn and that even with an improper set-up it still provided a pretty good showing.

John

wanna911

The RE070's on the GT-R also have much more grip than even fresh PS2's. They are pretty close to an R-compound.

dustinr

You guys are funny... talk about not subjective. Nothing could be better than a extreme rear weight biased Porsche! Have any of you ever driven any of the Japanese performance cars? They're pretty amazing contrary to what you guys think... Don't get me wrong, I love my Turbo, but to be honest, my little lowly Evo VIII MR is more confidence inspiring at 160mph than my turbo, so I can only assume that if what they say is true about the aero design and chasis package of the GT-R, it's probably easier to drive it faster than the Porsche. If they improved the ATTESA, and HICAS systems at all over the previous R34 GT-R's then it's going to be an amazing handling car. Those systems are phenomenal at sorting out all kinds of driver screw ups. It is a AWD, All Wheel Steer, active suspension, front to back/ side to side torque split system with Brembo 15" rotors and monoblock 6 piston calipers.. no slouch.. so who ever said that it couldn't outbrake a Porsche, I wouldn't hold my breath on that one... who do you think makes the brake system on your Porsche? Brembo... and ours aren't monoblock. So just because it's cheaper and Japanese doesn't mean that it's not capable. But in the end it's still a Nissan. And 20 years down the road our Porsche's are still going to be timeless and will have some resale left to them and the GT-R will be...well, a lot cheaper and still not as glamourous or collectible. But if you can afford a GT-R too... get one to play with for a few years, you won't be dissapointed I promise... and then you can save some mileage on your Turbo.

wanna911

#1 The new Gt-R does not have Hicas/ All wheel steering.

#2 the same 6 piston brakes on both cars which will rely on abs after they overpower the tires means that the lighter car will win. The GT-R has much better tires so that helps, but on the same tires the GT-R CANNOT outbrake a TT and especially not a GT3 as shown on the best motoring videos.

#3 I have braked from 170 mph to 35 at Road Atlanta and no problems, havent driven an EVO at those speeds but still no problems to speak of.

dustinr

Really? No HICAS on the new GT-R? Hmmm, wonder if it added too much weight so they didn't use it. I wouldn't expect it to outbrake a GT3..way big weight difference to overcome, but a TT? But being the devil's advocate here, look at the price point!

I'm hoping that all of these new cheaper super cars (ZR-1, GT-R,etc) will up the ante a little bit and push Porsche to come up with some new wicked performers. A little competition is a good thing.

993-C4S

Price point? MSRP is around $70k for GT-R prior to destination and handling charges. The great unknonw at this point is what will dealers do for markup/profit? If there is a high demand from Nissan fans, pricing could easily rise to be on par with Turbo.

See this post for more.. http://993c4s.com/wordpress/?p=71

pole position

FYI, Brembo's 6 piston set ups are NOT the same as what Porsche is using...........Brembo produces Porsche brakes to Porsche spec, different kettle of fish.

Ours are not monoblock ? Maybe not on planet Renault/Nissan or "160mph" Evo but on earth they are .........

dustinr

Learn something new everyday...I assumed they were 2 piece design, they don't look like a typical monoblock...my ignorance. I like the passive/aggressive inferrence that a Evo can only do 160mph in some other world. Here in Nevada with miles and miles of wide open straight roads out in the middle of nowhere we have two, legal, wide open as fast as you can drive, run what you brung, open road races.

http://www.openroadracing.com/html/bonneville.html

&

http://www.openroadracing.com/html/ponyexpress.html

So yes, I've driven the Evo faster than probably 90% of Porsche owners will ever drive their Porsche's.
It in fact maxed out at 163mph, detuned to stove off high rpm detonation and red-line overrun. I drove that speed constant for 15- 20 minutes. And to your disappointment, it was easier and more stable than doing the same in my X50 (bone stock). Ever wonder why 911 race cars have obnoxious wings and front spoliers... it's because they need them for stabilty at high speed.

My point here is not to squash Porsche; it's to widen the neersightedness that Porsche owners have to every other car in existence. The 911 is far from the best car design, and Porsche has had to come up with some creative ideas in order to make it work; and they've done a good job. But if they were to just think outside of the box and ditch the idea that the 911 is what it is and must always be so... imagine if they removed the rear seat area and moved the engine farther forward; do you know what that would do for the dynamics of the car, especially with the boxer engine being so low already; more centralized mass and lower COG, it would handle amazing.

eclou

Too bad they never thought of that...

mark kibort

All right , enough!!!

Listen, having more time behind (literally) a well prepared 4x4 Evo, in a racing environment , i can say that a good one, race prepared is about as good as a 20 year old porsche 928. (hp bumped up to near 400 and some basic racing goodies) once you put on the 305 tires up front and do the upgrades of hp to 550hp, then it squirts ahead by about 3 -4 seconds a lap. EVEN with one of the worlds best drivers at the wheel. (ask me how i know) Now, that time, with all that HP is still 10 seconds slower than a GT3RSR on slicks (ie ALMS)

so, what is the point?? There is no point. Well, actually there is one. brakes are brakes are brakes. there are very little difference in brakes on a given lap that hasnt cooked them to death to have to have bigger or better brakes. I can remember the announcers of SpeedGT world challenge, commenting "look at the braking capacity of this porsche 928" as i ran up on Derek bell after he lapped me going into turn 11 at laguna seca. By the way, i was driving a 20 year old porsche 928 street car with brakes like you find on a stock 1987 BMW M3 (single piston calipers, tiny rotors) while Derek was driving the famous Audi S4 monster with the best of everything.

I think speed world challenge has proved that most cars with the same HP and weight will run similar lap times, with the same driver. There are subtle differnces for any given level of prep and performance allowances.

Now, the real differences come into play when the bar goes up a notch. can a 1:35 evo run 10 seconds faster with the sky is the limit? well, yes it can, in fact, an evo from japan just ran about 6 seconds faster than Sofro's time in his World challenge GT porsche GT3 this year at one speed competition.

the point that most porsche guys will be right in arguing, is that the porsche is better designed as a race car from the start. a GT3 can become a GT3RS with some bolt ons. a 997 turbo street car, since they are basically from the same tub, can be made to perform as well as the GT3 and faster.

From the video it is clear that the rice rocket has more hp, and very capable brakes and handling. the porsche driver was a little more sloppy in his control and if i remember correctly, wasnt he laughing while he was driving, or was that the announcers? Anyway, the point of all this is the question, is this car better than the porsche turbo. There are tons of cars that might be faster in track situation. heck, look at a viper, even the very old ones. Max angelleli ran a 1:39.xx at laguna seca in a GT3 street car. a stock viper on same types of tires has been clocked at 1:37 with a good club driver.

This is about as good as a comparison as the 0-60 adds and reports you see from any number of hundreds of magazines. give me a HP and a HP to weigtht ratio and an absolute weight, and if they are close to the same, the times on the track, 0-60 will be pretty darn close with equal drivers.
so, if one car was 3.9 and the other 3.8seconds 0-60, does that make the slightly faster car better? well, its up to the person reading the spec. In the mine of someone plugged into the sport, there are too many other factors to even discuss here.

Is the Skyline or pumped up Evo a close match to the 997 turbo? sure.
Is it cheaper? probably
are the evos and other turbo cars from asia great performance values? Sure. they are very impressive, no doubt. BUT,
If i wanted to take one vs the other and turn it into a GT world challenge racer, what would i pick? probably the porsche turbo, based on the things proven to work on the race track that could be done, relatively easily.
which one would be more tuneable, which one would be more durable, etc etc. all questions that would need to be answered to really see if these cars are true equals.

edit: and by the way, this 20 year old porsche i speak of is the world record setting production car of 1986. it also went 180mph in stock form, earlier the year of the land speed record. ALSO, this 20 year old car, with its original engine, has run 91 race days and 6 full racing seasons while only brake pads, oil and tires have been swapped out. (oh, and a couple of wheel bearings).
This is the kind of heart that drives the porsche. Tough to compete with, on a level playing field as far as performance value and capabilities.

Mk

Larry Herman

Dustin, I think that many Porsche owners (especially the ones with older cars) appreciate their cars for what they are, low production, semi-exotic, purpose built sportscars. There have always been factory hot-rodded versions of pedestrian sedans, but that doesn't make them better or worse than our Porsches, just a different corporate philosophy.

And as far as technology goes, newer cars with newer engineering will always have an edge. Remember that a 997 is new engineering but a very old platform. Try driving a Cayman some time. It may surprise you.

Finally, there are not to many instances where you you can't take a decent lower priced car, and for less money make it faster or handle better than a more expensive one. It's just that you really don't have the same thing when you are done. One of my sons had an EVO. It was fun, and ran pretty well on the track but he sold it for a 993 & he never looked back.

mark kibort

I had to watch the video again. are both cars automatics? plus, its pretty clear they are not on the same tires, or the porsche driver is a drifter! he is overslowing for many of the curves and still the car cannot keep grip. the GTR has much more grip as you can see him even on an inside line on one of the curves and the back end just snaps in place, where the big slide follows the 911 around the track.
Tires are always the great equalizer! a great street tire and a fair DOT race tire, can be 4 seconds slower.

It was entertaining video, as would be seen by most any competition of two near equal HP cars. (With all the other controlable factors, out of control as it is in this comparison)

Mk

993-C4S

This is a Porsche board, so it's only normal for us to favor the Porsche brand.

However, I think we are biased with good reason. It's not just Porsche fans and owners that constantly praise the 911 (all variants). The general automotive media does as well. In fact, I've recently written at least three times about the fact that the 911 seems to be the "benchmark" for all other supercars.

You can see them here:

http://993c4s.com/wordpress/?p=45

and

http://993c4s.com/wordpress/?p=37

So, when you have a large, vocal group like Rennlist members, combined with the general automotive media constantly reinforcing a stereotype (in this instance, that Porsche is the best). It's a tough sell to try and convince otherwise. IMHO

With that said, I agree that a little competition is good for everyone and posted about it earlier in this thread.

mark kibort

Dustin,

There is nothing wrong with the engine in the front, rear or mid. all have advantages. as it stands now, what is the fastest production based sports car??????? in the world of professional racing, the Corvette and Austin martin come to mind. (Holden's are no slouches either on the other side of the pond)

If you havent noticed, the 911 has evolved quite far since the Speedster! Just look at what has been incorporated in the new 997 . It is a pure bred racer. (stuffed with nice street going stuff)

mk

amaist

You listed a whole bunch of gadgets that in this video are mostly irrelevant. All they do is make an average driver look like a hero. This is, of course, nice but doesn't make the car faster overall. Any car is only as fast as the four tires touching the ground let it. Being able to reach maximum performance can be easier or harder but the biggest factor is HP, weight, and the size of the contact patch. Let's ignore obsolete muscle cars and focus on relatively modern cars so that this may hold true. (Note: modern Vettes are not obsolete)

Having monoblock vs. 2-piece brakes is nowhere near a significant factor in this. In fact the braking distances would be almost identical. As long as the braking system can overpower the amount of available grip and have sufficient heat capacity to keep working under hard use the differences will only show in terms of feel for the driver.

Many people enjoy Porsches for what they are. They like driving them and find the goofy rear engine configuration interesting to drive. You can build a car more efficiently but what fun would that be?

And people on this board are dismissive of this video only in its usefulness as a real comparison between the cars. The video is made to be entertaining like a professional wrestling match. The outcome is very much unimportant. To most people it's kind of an inside joke when they watch a Japanese car video. When is the (GT-R, NSX, Evo, Type-R) going to jump out of the bushes and pass all the Porsches and Ferraris?