McLaren's latest Mea Culpa...
12-13-2007, 01:34 PM
#1
Super Moderator
Needs More Cowbell
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Needs More Cowbell
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Thread Starter
McLaren's latest Mea Culpa...
12-13-2007, 02:14 PM
#2
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: In the pasture.
Posts: 4,202
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I find it difficult to believe ML did not use any of the info in their 2007 car. The temtation would be to great, especially if they were not running at the top.
With this info it would seem impossible not to strip Pretty Boy of the WDC had he won.
With this info it would seem impossible not to strip Pretty Boy of the WDC had he won.
12-13-2007, 02:34 PM
#3
Bloody hell! This is the equivalent of being caught cold with your entire team in the bank vault. It's amazing to me that the McLaren management didn't jump on this the moment Stepney turned up with the Ferrari documents. This was a disaster waiting to happen in any circumstances, and it was only a matter of time. As you said, the only thing that could have made it worse would have been a McLaren driver winning the WDC only to have it pulled and handed to Ferrari. Given this was a real possibility for the entire season, its hard to know how McLaren thought they could keep the lid on this obvious little problem of stolen IP!
If you think dealing with Bernie is not much fun for McLaren, imagine how cheery it must be for them in sponsor meetings!
If you think dealing with Bernie is not much fun for McLaren, imagine how cheery it must be for them in sponsor meetings!
12-13-2007, 02:53 PM
#4
NASA Racer
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
I like this part
“McLaren now wishes to put these matters behind it and to move forward focusing on the 2008 season.”
They should have finished the sentence with "Until we get caught for something else we haven't admitted to yet"
“McLaren now wishes to put these matters behind it and to move forward focusing on the 2008 season.”
They should have finished the sentence with "Until we get caught for something else we haven't admitted to yet"
12-13-2007, 03:27 PM
#7
Race Director
Oh brother....
First of all the first thing I thought when I read this is that Max is rubbing Ron's nose in it because of the protest. This sort of **** is the result of the fragile inflated egos in F1 of which Max's is probably the second biggest and the most fragile. I've little doubt this was suggested by Max to Ron to avoid further punishment for some stupid thing or another.
As for using the Ferrari info on the McLaren, that is totally preposterous! The McLaren design was already committed to extremely large part when Stepney passed along the dossier. Design lead-times are a year in F1 and by the end of the current season, most teams already have the major parameters locked in. The unknown is usually just details. Even with full technical drawings, assuming Big Mac wanted to use Ferrari information, they would have to pull engineers off their own design program to study the Ferrari drawings in great detail to even figure out if there is anything they want to use. Very little could be gleaned from a "once-over." No way in hell a team like Big Mac would blindly use ideas gleaned from another team's drawings without serious commitment to studying how it could impact what their own program is giving them. Sure, some things like illegal movable aero that Ferrari had could be copied, but it was not. You don't just slap together a modern F1 design in a few weeks and guess at what something does.
I know to some it looks like I'm a major Big Mac fan. I am not and never have been, however I respect the team and their accomplishments. Hell, I respect Scummie's ability and accomplishments despite despising the man. It's just that I think Big Mac got gang raped by the Prancing Whorse and their media spin. My honest opinion.
The stuff that was on-going info sharing by Stepney, while extreme, is something that happens in some form or another all the time, just not in as organized fashion. It's my understanding that the info that was disseminated through McLaren was the stuff from the phone conversations, not the stuff in the dossier. Minor stuff. And as I said before, if I were a shareholder in Ferrari I'd want someone's *** handed to me for this being the second time Ferrari has lost highly sensitive data to another team. Their internal security sucks. I'm not blaming them for the information being shared. That fault lies purely with their employee. But, they are responsible to their shareholders to protect valuable proprietary information and their management apparently SUCKS at that. Heads should roll and would in any corporation where such information was so poorly protected more than once.
First of all the first thing I thought when I read this is that Max is rubbing Ron's nose in it because of the protest. This sort of **** is the result of the fragile inflated egos in F1 of which Max's is probably the second biggest and the most fragile. I've little doubt this was suggested by Max to Ron to avoid further punishment for some stupid thing or another.
As for using the Ferrari info on the McLaren, that is totally preposterous! The McLaren design was already committed to extremely large part when Stepney passed along the dossier. Design lead-times are a year in F1 and by the end of the current season, most teams already have the major parameters locked in. The unknown is usually just details. Even with full technical drawings, assuming Big Mac wanted to use Ferrari information, they would have to pull engineers off their own design program to study the Ferrari drawings in great detail to even figure out if there is anything they want to use. Very little could be gleaned from a "once-over." No way in hell a team like Big Mac would blindly use ideas gleaned from another team's drawings without serious commitment to studying how it could impact what their own program is giving them. Sure, some things like illegal movable aero that Ferrari had could be copied, but it was not. You don't just slap together a modern F1 design in a few weeks and guess at what something does.
I know to some it looks like I'm a major Big Mac fan. I am not and never have been, however I respect the team and their accomplishments. Hell, I respect Scummie's ability and accomplishments despite despising the man. It's just that I think Big Mac got gang raped by the Prancing Whorse and their media spin. My honest opinion.
The stuff that was on-going info sharing by Stepney, while extreme, is something that happens in some form or another all the time, just not in as organized fashion. It's my understanding that the info that was disseminated through McLaren was the stuff from the phone conversations, not the stuff in the dossier. Minor stuff. And as I said before, if I were a shareholder in Ferrari I'd want someone's *** handed to me for this being the second time Ferrari has lost highly sensitive data to another team. Their internal security sucks. I'm not blaming them for the information being shared. That fault lies purely with their employee. But, they are responsible to their shareholders to protect valuable proprietary information and their management apparently SUCKS at that. Heads should roll and would in any corporation where such information was so poorly protected more than once.
Trending Topics
12-13-2007, 03:38 PM
#9
Race Director
Heh, from Autosport.com:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/64373
Looks like I was right. Max wanted a verbal blow-job. What a tool.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/64373
The FIA is looking to put an end to F1's spying affair after expressing its intention to cancel February's meeting of the World Motor Sport Council.
Earlier this month, the governing body did not clear McLaren's 2008 car and deferred a decision to 14 February's meeting of the WMSC.
However, on Thursday McLaren apologised to the FIA and Ferrari, and accepted the Italian team's data had penetrated deeper into their team than suspected at first.
The FIA has responded to that saying president Max Mosley has asked the WMSC for permission to cancel February's meeting and consider the matter closed.
"In the light of McLaren's public apology and undertakings, the FIA President has asked the members of the World Motor Sport Council for their consent to cancel the hearing scheduled for 14 February 2008 and, in the interests of the sport, to consider this matter closed," said the FIA in a statement.
The FIA also made public a copy of the report by the FIA Technical Department to the World Motor Sport Council.
An FIA spokesman said an answer from the WMSC should come some time next week.
Earlier this month, the governing body did not clear McLaren's 2008 car and deferred a decision to 14 February's meeting of the WMSC.
However, on Thursday McLaren apologised to the FIA and Ferrari, and accepted the Italian team's data had penetrated deeper into their team than suspected at first.
The FIA has responded to that saying president Max Mosley has asked the WMSC for permission to cancel February's meeting and consider the matter closed.
"In the light of McLaren's public apology and undertakings, the FIA President has asked the members of the World Motor Sport Council for their consent to cancel the hearing scheduled for 14 February 2008 and, in the interests of the sport, to consider this matter closed," said the FIA in a statement.
The FIA also made public a copy of the report by the FIA Technical Department to the World Motor Sport Council.
An FIA spokesman said an answer from the WMSC should come some time next week.
12-13-2007, 03:58 PM
#10
Rennlist Member
Heh, from Autosport.com:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/64373
Looks like I was right. Max wanted a verbal blow-job. What a tool.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/64373
Looks like I was right. Max wanted a verbal blow-job. What a tool.
12-13-2007, 05:20 PM
#11
Don't get me wrong, I'm a staunch McLaren fan.
That Mosely wanted a written blow job is a great analogy, and right on the money. Still, its hard to imagine that Ron or anyone else at McLaren could have seen this as anything but a ticking time bomb when the Ferrari documents turned up in young Nigel's sweaty hands. Sure it happens in other teams, and sure it was unlikely to have any meaningful impact on their 2008 development, but it must have been bloody obvious that there were a few possible end games to simply having the material, and all of them were gnarly. Why risk the damage? What was Ron smoking that would make the team so delusional?
That Mosely wanted a written blow job is a great analogy, and right on the money. Still, its hard to imagine that Ron or anyone else at McLaren could have seen this as anything but a ticking time bomb when the Ferrari documents turned up in young Nigel's sweaty hands. Sure it happens in other teams, and sure it was unlikely to have any meaningful impact on their 2008 development, but it must have been bloody obvious that there were a few possible end games to simply having the material, and all of them were gnarly. Why risk the damage? What was Ron smoking that would make the team so delusional?
12-13-2007, 05:38 PM
#12
Race Director
I agree there was a lot of risk there. I don't believe Ron knew anywhere near what some people suggest. It wouldn't be worth it to him. I AM surprised he didn't ferret out the full scope of the issue sooner. I do believe he disclosed what he knew. More likely employees were keeping info from him for a variety of reasons. Whatever anybody thinks of Ron, the man is NOT stupid. He's a smart team principle and knows that too much info means too much risk when most of the info is of very limited value.
12-13-2007, 06:10 PM
#13
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
I don't have the sort of confidence in Ron Dennis as you do Geo. I'm a staunch McLaren hater, so I'm a bit biased. That being said, if Dennis didn't know as much about what was going on, why didn't he? At the end of the day, the buck stops with him. Once again, as a Ferrari fan, I wish Dennis to be team principle for a looooong time as he has demostrated he lead a team from certain Championship to utter failure in both driver's and constructors Championships.
From a practical standpoint, however, how much longer can the shareholders, most of which are now in Germany and the Middle East, afford to have him at the top of this company?
With all due respect to his past accomplishments, this past year has been nothing short of an embarassing episode after episode for McLaren International from the "on track problems" of their drivers to the off track chaos that still to this day has not been able to be put behind them in the off season. Quite frankly, I don't have any respect for the man.
From a practical standpoint, however, how much longer can the shareholders, most of which are now in Germany and the Middle East, afford to have him at the top of this company?
With all due respect to his past accomplishments, this past year has been nothing short of an embarassing episode after episode for McLaren International from the "on track problems" of their drivers to the off track chaos that still to this day has not been able to be put behind them in the off season. Quite frankly, I don't have any respect for the man.
12-13-2007, 06:29 PM
#14
Race Director
Pete, have you ever kept something from your boss? Or better yet, have you known something your boss should have been informed of, but didn't think it was a big deal until later? Beyond the engineer in touch with Stepney (names slips my mind for the moment) if people only got bits and pieces they may have thought nothing of it, especially as information does get shared around the paddock and will continue to be. I'm not trying to excuse him, but I still think they got screwed.
As for the shareholders, I think management at Ferrari have FAR more to answer to their shareholders for than McLaren. Ferrari management is incompetent apparently when it comes to protecting valuable assets of the company.
As for the shareholders, I think management at Ferrari have FAR more to answer to their shareholders for than McLaren. Ferrari management is incompetent apparently when it comes to protecting valuable assets of the company.
12-13-2007, 06:52 PM
#15
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
The name of the Ferrari employee escapes me right now, Mike Couphlin, I don't remember the spelling of his last name. In the latest issue of AutoWeek, they chronical the spygate episode in depth. It's good reading, you should look into it.
The difference I see is that the one rouge employee for Ferrari, who happened to be a top level chief mechanic had been with the team for 13 years. In fact he had arrived at Ferrari a year before Schumacher himself joined the team.
When he was passed over for promotion, he had resentment and started to pass along the information to Stepney, slowly, not all at once. He later turned over the entire dossier.
Getting back to your original point, yes, I believe we all have kept things from our bosses at one time or another, however, the sort of information received in this instant is not a typical thing that the CEO doesn't need to know about. In fact, I am of the opinion that Dennis knew everything. Getting the entire F2007 dossier is too big of a deal and beyond the norm of "well everyone cheats".
The facts show that Alonso and DeLa Rosa were exchanging information during testing. The facts also show that Stepney had received such detailed information that they knew when Kimi/Massa would stop during the first GP in Austrailia this year. In effect, they knew Ferrari's pit fuel stategy before the start of the race and could adjust accordingly.
That being said, Kimi still won in Austrailia, so even with prior knowledge of fuel loads, McLaren couldn't keep pace with the Ferrari, hence it was time to go a little deeper to slow them down, i.e. the protest on the moveable floor. At the time, didn't you wonder "How did they know about the floor if it only moves during high speed load"? You can't see it in video or still photos?
That is when Ferrari suspected Couplin (still can't spell his last name). They fired him immediately thereafter. In contrast, McLaren suspended Stepney and as far as I know, he's still suspended and not fired. Why not? Both Couplin and Stepney's careers are ruined. Why hasn't McLaren fired Stepney?
If he acted alone with a few people here (Alonso/Dela Rosa) and a few there, he should have been fired. Afterall, he cost McLaren the Constructors Championship and $100,000,000. My theory is that Stepney has not been fired because if he is, he'll sing like a bird and implicate all those that claim to not have known about anything which could cause more damage to McLaren International than has already been done.
So is it difficult to police your own employee's? Yes, a trusted chief mechanic for Ferrari when AWOL. He was fired. The same cannot be said for McLaren's Stepney. In the end, however, it may cost Ron Dennis his position.
The difference I see is that the one rouge employee for Ferrari, who happened to be a top level chief mechanic had been with the team for 13 years. In fact he had arrived at Ferrari a year before Schumacher himself joined the team.
When he was passed over for promotion, he had resentment and started to pass along the information to Stepney, slowly, not all at once. He later turned over the entire dossier.
Getting back to your original point, yes, I believe we all have kept things from our bosses at one time or another, however, the sort of information received in this instant is not a typical thing that the CEO doesn't need to know about. In fact, I am of the opinion that Dennis knew everything. Getting the entire F2007 dossier is too big of a deal and beyond the norm of "well everyone cheats".
The facts show that Alonso and DeLa Rosa were exchanging information during testing. The facts also show that Stepney had received such detailed information that they knew when Kimi/Massa would stop during the first GP in Austrailia this year. In effect, they knew Ferrari's pit fuel stategy before the start of the race and could adjust accordingly.
That being said, Kimi still won in Austrailia, so even with prior knowledge of fuel loads, McLaren couldn't keep pace with the Ferrari, hence it was time to go a little deeper to slow them down, i.e. the protest on the moveable floor. At the time, didn't you wonder "How did they know about the floor if it only moves during high speed load"? You can't see it in video or still photos?
That is when Ferrari suspected Couplin (still can't spell his last name). They fired him immediately thereafter. In contrast, McLaren suspended Stepney and as far as I know, he's still suspended and not fired. Why not? Both Couplin and Stepney's careers are ruined. Why hasn't McLaren fired Stepney?
If he acted alone with a few people here (Alonso/Dela Rosa) and a few there, he should have been fired. Afterall, he cost McLaren the Constructors Championship and $100,000,000. My theory is that Stepney has not been fired because if he is, he'll sing like a bird and implicate all those that claim to not have known about anything which could cause more damage to McLaren International than has already been done.
So is it difficult to police your own employee's? Yes, a trusted chief mechanic for Ferrari when AWOL. He was fired. The same cannot be said for McLaren's Stepney. In the end, however, it may cost Ron Dennis his position.