BostonDMD

Mrbillfll, my thoughts exactly, hence why I am learning in a 1987 911......

I want to become the best driver that I could be..... therefore for me, no electronic aids, but lots of good instructors .....

sechsgang

but then put them both in corvettes...

Im not saying momentum racing/driving isnt amazingly helpful and extremely beneficial in driving higher hp cars...but...there is only a certain amount that one can learn IMHO in a complete momentum car that translates to high hp cars (flame suit on).

BostonDMD

Larry Herman

That "certain amount" is the development of the skills to make the high HP car go as fast as it can. You're fighting the odds trying to learn those skills on a high HP car. Just search for plenty of threads on this topic, or ask the guys in our club who sold their turbos for N/A cars.

Back to the topic. The problems with PSM and the other devices is if you develop a style that depends on those aids, then you will never be under complete control of the car, and will never be able to drive the car to it's full potention. The example that Mark made about braking was a good illustration. Here's another:

If you are constantly entering the turns too fast, the PSM could well be saving you a little on entry, and then if you pinch the turn a little on exit, it will save you again. You could probably get reasonably fast with this style, but you will not get to the maximum potential of the car and never extract all of the available speed because you are not really balancing the grip of the car on turn entry, you don't have to maximize your line for stability (the PSM takes care of that) and you are not developing the natural drift that allows you to exit with early power.

mrbill_fl

I'd still bet on the 944, as the 996 drover may never have seen oversteer. might not know what to do when the tail jumps out...

(we're talking about old vetts, mustangs, & camaro's right? tail happy big motor cars.... -Do C6's have traction controls, probably right?

(this ought to get us to 9pages)

cooleyjb

1. All cars are momentum cars. Low HP cars just make the mistakes of lesser drivers more obvious. Carrying speed through the turns is the goal of driving fast around the course and that is momentum. Sorry, pet peeve. Similar to the autocross world calling a course a speed maintnence course. Of course you don't want to hit the brakes. It slows you down.

2. Great article by Pobst a couple of months ago. He compared racing a spec miata and his Speed Gt Porsche at Lime Rock. He said the racing was very diffferent. The Porsche was in a sense much simpler to drive. He cited turns where in the spec miata the fast guys are at 95-100% throttle and barely hanging on really driving the car whereas in the 911 there was a clear braking zone, turn in, application of throttle, apex track out etc. The turns were much more cut and dry in a high HP car vs. the low HP car.

What I got from the Pobst article was that it took a somewhat more complex skillset to drive the Miata around Lime Rock fast, than it took to drive the Porsche. I'm not saying it took more skill, just the skillset was more complex.

sechsgang

I knew I could pump this puppy to 9 pages

sechsgang

I read the article. It was great and I agree about his findings. But Im more going along the lines of Larry Herman in that that certain amount will let you take a high hp car to its max...but isnt the definitive factor which says one will be able to do so.

930man

soon as i saw this i figured 8 pages

cooleyjb

I agree as well.

BostonDMD

Does it mean that the Miata driver will be faster then the Porsche driver in the same high powered car, weather a Porsche, a Z06, or a Viper?

Logic would say yes.....

cooleyjb

Nope, it meant that the skillset the Miata driver was having to use included a type of turn that the high HP driver didn't have to deal with. It doesn't mean that the driver of the Porsche was any less talented than the Miata driver.

Sean F

I vote for the Miata being less complex, all you do is keep your foot to the floor on the throttle the entire time

Veloce Raptor

I have learned more about driving REALLY fast, at the limit, carrying huge momentum, by following (or trying to follow) really fast Spec Miata drovers than from anything else...

Sean F

most important body part for driving a 911 - right foot
most important body part for driving a Miata - *****