PSM, AWD, ABS and Power Steering……...
11-17-2007, 11:41 AM
#61
Brian, I think this thread has alot of directions as the initial question can be interpreted differently:
PSM, ABS, (pro level tools) can be used to go faster. ie F1, this is running a car at the extreme limit. I thought this evident when Jeff Gordon drove JPMs car at Indy. After going off in the infield, JPM explained to him how to use the traction control to carry the car through the turns. Gordon adapted immediately as a Pro will and went faster.
PSM, ABS, (DE level) can avoid learning proper brake release and slip angles, thus producing a "less skilled driver, er drover" With no brake lock up, the driver may never understand pedal effort or trailbraking properly.
My problem with PSM, even for solo drivers, is without 4 brake pedals in the car, one cannot create their own answer to what the car did to avoid a spin. I have been learning real trail-braking using a Pro coach and while I understand and duplicate the process often, it is not yet unconscious. PSM was developed for a street vehicle and has pretty high limits, but I think on the track it hinders the learning curve. Teaching skidpad with a PSM based car is a real PITA. You need to really exceed the "system" in order to get the car into a mode that requires driver correction. So PSM creates a learning "cliff" rather than a stairstep.
PSM, ABS, (pro level tools) can be used to go faster. ie F1, this is running a car at the extreme limit. I thought this evident when Jeff Gordon drove JPMs car at Indy. After going off in the infield, JPM explained to him how to use the traction control to carry the car through the turns. Gordon adapted immediately as a Pro will and went faster.
PSM, ABS, (DE level) can avoid learning proper brake release and slip angles, thus producing a "less skilled driver, er drover" With no brake lock up, the driver may never understand pedal effort or trailbraking properly.
My problem with PSM, even for solo drivers, is without 4 brake pedals in the car, one cannot create their own answer to what the car did to avoid a spin. I have been learning real trail-braking using a Pro coach and while I understand and duplicate the process often, it is not yet unconscious. PSM was developed for a street vehicle and has pretty high limits, but I think on the track it hinders the learning curve. Teaching skidpad with a PSM based car is a real PITA. You need to really exceed the "system" in order to get the car into a mode that requires driver correction. So PSM creates a learning "cliff" rather than a stairstep.
I interpreted the question as being "who will progress faster in days 1-10, a driver with PSM or one without?" If the driver has opportunities to drive solo, I think the PSM driver will learn slightly faster as during those solo opportunities the car will remind them if they are exceeding the limit. I think most novice non-PSM drivers may have troubles recognizing that on their own. If they can recognize, then it makes little difference if they have PSM or not.
If the question is "who can drive faster - a pro with PSM or a pro without?" Then it really matters on the quality of the PSM system. I know that in my car, I can definitely drive faster without it on.
11-17-2007, 12:19 PM
#62
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Yes Brian, my questions are a bit ambiguos sometimes, just so that they generate a wider spectrum of answers.
I personally like to learn the hard way, without any aids (except the instructor of course), it makes me more focused on the track knowing there are no safety nets...... but that is just me. I turned the PSM off on my Cayman S at my first DE (actually the instructor suggested it), but that is not the point.......
I personally like to learn the hard way, without any aids (except the instructor of course), it makes me more focused on the track knowing there are no safety nets...... but that is just me. I turned the PSM off on my Cayman S at my first DE (actually the instructor suggested it), but that is not the point.......
11-17-2007, 12:28 PM
#63
Lifetime Rennlist Member
Yes Brian, my questions are a bit ambiguos sometimes, just so that they generate a wider spectrum of answers.
I personally like to learn the hard way, without any aids (except the instructor of course), it makes me more focused on the track knowing there are no safety nets...... but that is just me. I turned the PSM off on my Cayman S at my first DE (actually the instructor suggested it), but that is not the point.......
I personally like to learn the hard way, without any aids (except the instructor of course), it makes me more focused on the track knowing there are no safety nets...... but that is just me. I turned the PSM off on my Cayman S at my first DE (actually the instructor suggested it), but that is not the point.......
Here is an exercise for you...
Every time you are driving your street car, focus on feeling where the weight is, and where it is going. Feel it under accel, braking and especially cornering. A big, soft car or SUV is really the best, but anything will do. You will naturally be trying to balance the car without any conscious effort. You will be amazed at what the does to your awareness on track of what your car is really doing.
11-17-2007, 12:36 PM
#64
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
While no aids may be the hard way in the short term, I think it is, by far, the best way to learn long term. You want to learn to feel the car.
Here is an exercise for you...
Every time you are driving your street car, focus on feeling where the weight is, and where it is going. Feel it under accel, braking and especially cornering. A big, soft car or SUV is really the best, but anything will do. You will naturally be trying to balance the car without any conscious effort. You will be amazed at what the does to your awareness on track of what your car is really doing.
Here is an exercise for you...
Every time you are driving your street car, focus on feeling where the weight is, and where it is going. Feel it under accel, braking and especially cornering. A big, soft car or SUV is really the best, but anything will do. You will naturally be trying to balance the car without any conscious effort. You will be amazed at what the does to your awareness on track of what your car is really doing.
I actually tried in my wife's minivan, and it is amazing how that awareness makes the whole ride smooth.....(even though the kids are still fighting in the back seat
)
11-19-2007, 09:01 AM
#65
Still plays with cars.
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A further observation, cars with PSC, TC etc. allow a beginner to go faster sooner. That does not mean that the driver is more skilled however, in fact quite the contrary.
11-19-2007, 09:39 AM
#66
Mr. Excitement
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One aspect to think about with the drivers aids it confidence reinforcement. This can be a good thing is the right dose for some people. (One sign of an overdose is a gagging fog of "smug") Combine TDinDC's thread about how to get faster and driver confidence with this one. Maintaining confidence while learning in a good environment might let the driver poke around the limits more and get closer to driving the full potential of the car. Less time spent worrying about flat spotting the tires or snap spinning might be more time finding a great braking point for that hard corner. It is also good for exploring general limits of tire car combo. ABS is not going to cycle without the driver knowing it. Instruct to stay just under it and discuss what happened to make it cycle . One down side not mentioned yet is how the car will act during a "Both feet in" call. ABS will still have the car try to go where the front wheels are pointed rather than slide in a straight line.
11-19-2007, 09:48 AM
#67
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On a normal, dry track I cannot imagine any pro who couldn't go faster with the PSM off, regardless of it's sophistication. The purpose of PSM is to manage the back of the car, and prevent any real drift angles, which inhibits exit speed, thus making the pro slower.
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Larry Herman
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Larry Herman
2016 Ford Transit Connect Titanium LWB
2018 Tesla Model 3 - Electricity can be fun!
Retired Club Racer & National PCA Instructor
Past Flames:
1994 RS America Club Racer
2004 GT3 Track Car
1984 911 Carrera Club Racer
1974 914/4 2.0 Track Car
CLICK HERE to see some of my ancient racing videos.
11-19-2007, 11:17 AM
#68
Rennlist Member
A similar analogy can be made for going to race tire too quickly. Anything that masks learning or hides mistakes will hamper learning to some degree.
11-19-2007, 01:23 PM
#69
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
11-19-2007, 02:32 PM
#70
Rennlist Member
I have a love/hate relationship with my PSM and ABS system...
I am at the point where, at tracks I know WELL, the PSM is truly a hinderance and takes some good time away from me. That said, I value my car and if I have to give up those couple 10th during a DE or a race in order to have my car stay ON track that one time something comes up ( we ALL know **** happens and sometimes, whoever you are, your along for the ride). Because of that ONE time and the lack of any trophies or titles or anything to be won by CR or DE...I leave it on cause A) I can B) its not worth it and C)...if I even slightly engage ABS. I get PSM back on...
ABS...well, in my car, the ABS is pretty gung ho...which sucks at most tracks as It is nearly impossible for me not to invoke it (say the downhill into 10 at summit on a cold day) as the car is so damn heavy...that said, when its warm and the conditions are nice, it never really gets in the way as Im working on braking ligher sooner or braking later, lighter and to the apex (again, Thanks Chris) and the pressure is never really hard enough to set the system off...
I am at the point where, at tracks I know WELL, the PSM is truly a hinderance and takes some good time away from me. That said, I value my car and if I have to give up those couple 10th during a DE or a race in order to have my car stay ON track that one time something comes up ( we ALL know **** happens and sometimes, whoever you are, your along for the ride). Because of that ONE time and the lack of any trophies or titles or anything to be won by CR or DE...I leave it on cause A) I can B) its not worth it and C)...if I even slightly engage ABS. I get PSM back on...
ABS...well, in my car, the ABS is pretty gung ho...which sucks at most tracks as It is nearly impossible for me not to invoke it (say the downhill into 10 at summit on a cold day) as the car is so damn heavy...that said, when its warm and the conditions are nice, it never really gets in the way as Im working on braking ligher sooner or braking later, lighter and to the apex (again, Thanks Chris) and the pressure is never really hard enough to set the system off...
11-19-2007, 03:14 PM
#71
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Thread Starter
11-19-2007, 03:30 PM
#74
Rennlist Member
On a normal, dry track I cannot imagine any pro who couldn't go faster with the PSM off, regardless of it's sophistication. The purpose of PSM is to manage the back of the car, and prevent any real drift angles, which inhibits exit speed, thus making the pro slower.
11-19-2007, 04:16 PM
#75
Race Car
Dr, I think learning in a non-aided car is better in the long run, just like a momentum car will help you go faster in the long run.
-I think the better anology, would be:
Take a rookie that moves up to solo in a 996, and a rookie in solo that drives a N/A 944, and put them both in Formula Fords. (or FC's) and see who is faster, and safer.
I'd bet on the 944 (or 911 SC), will be up to speed much faster.
IMHO, the aids mask mistakes, where a simple gokart type vehicle lets you know about your mistakes much quicker.
OTOH, the 944 might crash out, before going solo, when their mistakes are not corrected quite quickly enough..
-I think the better anology, would be:
Take a rookie that moves up to solo in a 996, and a rookie in solo that drives a N/A 944, and put them both in Formula Fords. (or FC's) and see who is faster, and safer.
I'd bet on the 944 (or 911 SC), will be up to speed much faster.
IMHO, the aids mask mistakes, where a simple gokart type vehicle lets you know about your mistakes much quicker.
OTOH, the 944 might crash out, before going solo, when their mistakes are not corrected quite quickly enough..