Turbo Stan

I was at Sebring this past weekend. With PSM off, the tail started to come around on turn 12 (a left hander). With my foot still on the throttle I over corrected to the right, then again to the left and finally I got control.

What I'm wondering is if I did the right thing. Would it have been safer for me to have slammed on the brakes and let the car spin? I keep thinking that if I hadn't gotten it back under control I could have hit the inside wall.

Geoffrey

Obviously it is hard to say not being there and each situation will be different. In general, driving a 911 is no different in principle than any other car, you just need to be more sensitive to slip angles and quicker with your reactions than a car configured with a front or mid engine design. If you begin to feel the back end sliding more than you want, you lift to correct and counter steer. Like any car, there will be a point where it won't come back and you can possibly take drastic measures like braking and then accelerating to catch it. It will also depend on where in the corner it is happening, trail braking, steady state, or accelerating on corner exit.

I would say that you probably didn't notice the car sliding soon enough.

mrbill_fl

Hey Stan, did you mean T11? left hander?

http://www.sebringraceway.com/pdfs/06-Raceway-Map.pdf
http://www.sebringraceway.com/track_lay.lasso

where did it start gettin loose? before the apex on drivers left?

Might be due to an early turn in?

Matt Marks

"My advice to you is to start drinking heavily"

John Blutarski, zero point zero zero

Turbo Stan

Uh ya, they must have changed the corner numbers on me.

I was powering out of the turn. The end started coming out at about the apex or maybe just before it. You are right about the early turn in. I had been trying to do a slightly early turn in and use the throttle to push me wide of the apex. I did it successfully a few times. I was having a lot of fun and it felt great to do.

I probably should have let the car track out more as I was giving it gas. I was much smoother around that corner for the rest of the day.

sechsgang

I would agree with those that say it depends on the circumstances...there are times where trying to save it really could be what puts you into the wall (Larry Herman gave a great class session about this at our last DE...maybe he will chime in).


Your in Boca huh? Say hi to my granny for me...haha

mdrums

How are you taking turn 11? Do you take it as a double or single apex? Are you hitting the first rumble strip or going wide?

mrbill_fl

Stan are you running in solo now (yellow?)
(if not in solo, pls ignore this.... this is NOT the DE line, its my line.... use it at your own risk...)

Fwiw, I set up the T11 apex, by running a little later apex into T10,
But more importantly, I track out (T10) not on drivers left, near the curbing, but more mid track, and kinda aim for the large tree... cross track.

This puts me in position, to make T11 into a sweeper, with slow turn in, and constant increasing throttle, down into the T13 brake zone. since I'm about mid track when I start my left, I straighten out the left right kink... (it also means I'm not putting much power down, til the Left hander starts)

OTOH, I'm running 225 rubber, in a carb car that suffers from some starvation in that turn...

Not so sure that answers your original question, but might keep you out of trouble in 1st place...
best of luck!

-check with GCR on the January DE, sometimes they rent the skid pad, and that would be helpful....

Flying Finn

+1

When watching amateur car spins on video, this is 9 out 10 times the reason.

You need to be able to feel car's movement sort of "before" they happen and only way to learn that, is to be in those situations (slide, push, spin etc.).

You saved it so obviously you should've not slammed on the brakes and let it spin, in general you never should just "let it spin" but to try to be in control even when spinning.

You need to stay focused and understand what's happening (shile you're spinning) so that you can then at the right moment, let go of the brakes, steer ot whatever is necessary to do to not hit the wall.

Practice, practice, practice on slippery surface, skid pad or wet, snow, icy track/roads (in safe location) and eventually you'll know what to do.

Turbo Stan

The way I was taught is to brake deep into T10. Very late apex. I stay pretty much centered on the track at the start of T11 and take it as a long sweeper. I try to hit the second apex so that I am heading straight for T13.

I have been trying to practice different ways of doing T10. I am really not sure if there is a better way for me to enter it. The problem with my car and T10 is that if I brake deep and do a late apex I need to shift into 2nd or I run out of steam. But then I have to almost immediately shift to 3rd while I'm starting my turn in to T11. If I take an earlier apex and use more of the track on track-out then I can keep the car in 3rd although I still have to give it gas early to get the turbos spooling up. One of these days I will learn to brake with my left foot but that's a long ways away.

Jaws911

"If you begin to feel the back end sliding more than you want, you < LIFT> to correct and counter steer"

Ok, now I'm confused again - I thought gentle throttle to regrip the rears was the answer here...
(novice lurker)

sorry if this a hi-jack...

mrbill_fl

T5 at sebring is about the best place to practice that....

sjanes

I assume Geoffrey was talking about the end sliding out due to too much power, in which case, you need to reduce power enough to regain rear traction. If the rear is sliding simply due to too much entry speed, then yes, you need to add throttle.

TR6

I'm following this thread with interest, not so much about the line in this specific track/turn, but in general technique because I'm also trying to learn better car control skills. You guys with more track experience than me (which is most of you!), tell me if this is correct:

If the tail is breaking loose from lateral grip being exceeded, then apply progressively more throttle to transfer weight to the rear to get it planted while simultaneously giving a quick steering correction (CPR).

If the tail is breaking loose due to wheel spin from too much power/torque being applied near the limit, ease up very slightly on the throttle while simultaneously feeding a quick steering correction.

I've been reading the usual recommended books on this and am trying to equate what I read to what I see and experience on the track. The first scenario seems pretty straightforward to me. But I've struggled a bit with the second scenario, especially in my M Coupe. And sometimes it seems, especially on slick pavement, that I can go from the first scenario to the second in the blink of an eye with too much throttle. Or if I'm in the second scenario and I perhaps lift on the throttle a little too much, I'm suddenly facing the first scenario because of transferring weight forward.

Jaws911

"I assume Geoffrey was talking about the end sliding out due to too much power, in which case, you need to reduce power enough to regain rear traction. If the rear is sliding simply due to too much entry speed, then yes, you need to add throttle."

OK, got it (and to a small extent, BTDT). I guess this is esp. likely in a turbo. But is it just 'seat of the pants', as well as what driver inputs are/have just been, to know the difference ? Or something more?

Again , sorry if this is a too novice of a query - (but then, knowledge is power...but wait - if knowledge = power, can too much knowledge cause your rear wheels to slide? )

TR6 - just read your post -thanks for the better question...