TR6

Thought I'd throw this out there for input since I'm aware that I need to work on it. I've been DE'ing only since the beginning of this year and have about 14 track days to date. I've ridden with a couple of fast drivers and watched video of others, and I'm fascinated watching their rapid steering inputs in conjunction with the car starting to slide in a turn. However, I'm very apprehensive when I'm on the track thinking about the car suddenly starting to step out in a fast turn. I don't yet have the skills to quickly correct it before it becomes a skid that I cannot recover from. If I'm in a fast turn and the car suddenly slides out on me, most likely, I'm going off (its happened a couple of times).

I've been told by my instructors that I have decent car control skills (they probably tell all students that!), I have recovered from a few minor slips and slides in slower speed turns, and I'm told that I don't over react. But I need to learn to correct for slip consistently and at higher speeds. So, my question is, what is the best way to practice and master this skill without going off constantly or hitting something? And is there anyplace that one can practice other than a race track, especially at slower speeds? Unfortunately, my local region doesn't offer skid pad sessions. Also, I'm assuming street tires are best to learn this skill with? I'd really love to have the chance to practice in a place where I won't damage anything if I get sideways or backwards. Anyone have any drills or excercises to suggest?

Edit: BTW, I thought I'd mention that I already have the books 'Going Faster' and 'Speed Secrets' and also the 'Going Faster' Skip Barber DVD.

ltc

If a skidpad and/or driving school is not availalbe, have you considered karts?

Greg Smith

Go to an auto-x and practice inducing and correcting slides, and don't try to be fast. I really wish we could use the skidpad at MSR...

EDIT- The hardest part of catching a slide is not the initial counter-steer, but getting the wheel straight after the rear end bites again. Oh yeah, don't lift!

Z-man

Autocross is perhaps the best venue for discovering the technique for using slip angles to your advantage.

I believe you're talking about throttle steering, not just catching a slide when getting sideways wasn't the planned path...

-Z

boqueron

I have attended many courses on slidding schools with threated concrete. It seems that this replicates the ice ( when wet ) or sand (when dry). I have mastered (?) this technique on those special track sBUT ... it DID NOT help me at all in real track situations.

I have a friend that have learned to drift ( real slidding situation at REAL track speeds ) with a coach sitting next to him and with A LOT of practice on the track and - at least - one minor dammage to his car. He bought an old M3 and he has been learning with this car.!! BTW, burning lots of tyres.

If you are talking about counter steering when neede, at least in my personal experience, I have learned it by facing this situation - again with a coach - and lots of practice, and some spins...

I don't know if this helps...

pat056

When I first got DOT race tires (ie Hoosiers), that's what everyone cautioned me about. I won't hear the tires go away as the race tires don't squeel. Therefore, I won't now I'm losing/lost control.
Well my driving style didn't change. For me, I feel the car moving with my butt in the seat. I can feel that the car's not responding correctly for the input. It's hard for me to explain, but I just feel it.
I think one thing that helped me was when I did DE's and it rained, everyone seemed to come in off the wet track. Not me! That's when I think I learn the most about car control. Plus, if I do lose it (which I do, believe me!), there's plenty of runnoff because everyone else is in a nice dry trailer in the paddock. Don't be shy about getting on a wet track. I'll even get out on a wet track with race tires, just to learn control. I don't suggest that, at least not yet.

TheOtherEric

I would recommend two ways:

1. GT4 (playstation) or Forza (XBox). Get into a superfast car and you'll learn how to control slip and countersteer appropriately. Worked for me.

2. Karting. Not the cheap rental carts, but racing karts. They'll teach you a lot more than just car control, of course. Things happen VERY fast in karts, so it's a great way to learn.

Now, here are a couple things that will make it HARD to learn car control skills:
1. Installing stiff sway bars. (reduces body roll, which is a huge piece of driver feedback)
2. Running r-comp tires, especially MPSC or Hoosier, which give little feedback.
3. Not pushing your car very hard.

spazegun2213

I really feel that wet skidpads are VERY VERY beneficial to learning how to educate yourself on skid control. Every event i can I'm at the skidpad doing lap after lap. Every time i learn something that i can apply to dry pavement. Then again, i dont have the budget for karting, but i have played a LOT of gt4

sjanes

autocrosses are excellent for this, so are skid pads. At the track, continue to use street tires, and drive in the wet. Slip is all about feel so seat time is key.

cooleyjb

For fun working on oversteer

Empty parking lot in the middle of winter and fresh snowfall.

I generally had three goals when doing this.

1. Catch the car after just one fishtail.

2. See how long I can keep equally strong left and right fishtails going. One at a time. Rally like turns

3. Don't get in trouble for doing this.

Autocross is nice for feeling stuff on the pavement

TR6

I'd thought about autocross, but the autocross season is already done for this year in our local club. I'll have to do it in early 2008. Autocross has never appealed much to me because it just looks like a sea of orange cones to me, but if I think of it as a skid pad excercise, autocross makes a whole lot more sense to me.

I'm not aware of any karting leagues in the Dallas area, but I'll check. If anyone knows of any, please let me know. As a side note, I know this sounds cheesy, but I went to a place called Speed Zone that has a go kart slick track and I had a blast sliding the carts around the corners. I felt like I was actually gaining a feel for how to keep the cart pointed in the right direction and I was passing the people that were just drifting around. Something like that but on a faster platform would be great.

Driving on the race track in the rain is a good idea too. I've only had one chance to do that since I started DEing and I didn't push it because the cars that went off were getting stuck up to their axels in the mud. Looking back on it, I wish I had pushed it a little more.

insite

i'm by no means an expert, but am just at the point in my driving development where i'm learning to drive through the understeer / oversteer conditions with the throttle planted. early in my driving career, i'd turn in and wait for the car to set. i'd then keep the steering wheel more or less steady and use the throttle to control slip angle. this works great, but it's not that fast.

now my goal is to get back on the throttle ASAP and leave the throttle planted, using steering corrections to control slip angle. i began by practicing in lower speed closing apex corners. i'd lift to weight the nose, turn in hard, and get on the gas hard. i'd then practice correcting for under / oversteer while leaving my boot in the gas.

this is now transitioning in to the faster corners. i don't slow down quite as much and am on the gas much sooner, but i'm constantly adjusting steering to maintain slip angle while staying in the throttle. the practice in the lower speed corners got me comfortable enough with rapid correction that it's now second nature in the faster corners.

i still have a ways to go, but it's really a lot of fun driving this way. i'd like to also mention driving in the rain. some of my best learning days have been either Auto-X or DE days in the pouring rain.

J-RAD

One more vote for driving in the rain. I also have the advantage of natural weather to practice in between Dec. and Mar. I'm still far from being good at it, as the video below will attest (this was taken at a DE just last weekend), but I sure enjoy the practice!

Playin' in the Rain

It would be cool if more clubs set up a skidpad a couple times per year.

Flying Finn

+1

I've done most of my driving on ice, snow & gravel and that has helped me tremendously on asphalt.
Karting also and it is a big help for car control because sliding is such a big part of it.

M758

AUTOCROSS

I do all my sliding practice in autocross first. Once confortable in low speeds I can translate that feeling at high and higher speeds. The thing to remember is that while the speeds are low in autocross things still happend very very fast. In fact you have less time to made corners autocross since they are so close together. Think of it this why. Where else can you can take 15 corners in 45 seconds at any speed.