trackjunky

Couple things:
1) 944 TC needs a more realistic HP rating. Non of these cars puts out 247. They may put that to the rear wheels. Move the car to C. How about GTC-1? After all, this was a "Cup" car.
2) Like the heater motor deletion for air cooled cars.
3) Reflect proper HP numbers for US Carerra Cup cars
4) After some of the recent accidents, I think full cage for any car over "F" should be mandatory.

Just my opinions.

forklift

Thanks for the encouragement Bill!

Colin, what are you guys doing for bushings in GTC1? Thanks. Also, I think the final R&P on the rs/cup is 3.444 vs. 3.333, which I would think would be an advantage. Hopefully my rebuild is a ways off, but when I'm due, I'll blueprint and get a LWF. I'll take Bill's advice and when I am ready ($), I'll just try to pass the Cups w/ what I've got.

cooleyjb

I'm just happy that they are getting rid of letting people club race with roll bars.

jwade944

I respectfully disagree with Joe. From the club's perspective, the minimum safety rules should be established to protect the club. For instance, if the club's liability insurer refuses coverage because of the lack of a cage requirement, then that would be a reason to mandate a cage. Beyond that, I think the club should recommend "best practices" such as a cage, HANS, etc. and the racers should evaluate the personal risks for themselves. Personally, I decided to put a cage in my car and statistically, I believe that I am safer for it; however, there are numerous scenarios where a cage could increase my risks (fire for instance) due to the greater difficulty in exiting the car. Under, the current rules, I can choose for myself which side of that risk analysis to accept.

cooleyjb

Wheel to Wheel racing with a roll bar is dumb and selfish. If you can't afford a roll cage you shouldn't be racing wheel to wheel. PCA was the only group I knew of the was letting people go wheel to wheel with a roll bar. Anyone trying to justify wheel to wheel racing with just a roll bar needs to seriously take a step back and look at what they think is safe.

trackjunky

Why do people only install roll bars in their race cars? It is most likely a concession to the rules with the greatest concern being keeping the interior looking nice while making the safety requirements reversible.

If safety were the chief concern, everyone would opt for the maximum. Just because you are willing to assume risk by only installing a roll bar does not mean that you are making a good decision. In the event that you are involved in a serious collision and, god forbid, seriously injured, you may wish you had spent that shock money on something to improve safety.

Virtually all collisions in PCA club racing are purely accidents. And 100% of incidents in PCA club racing involving injuries are accidental. No one intends to injure another person. With this being said, why would you take the chance with your own health and life? In the split second that you see someone sliding across the wet grass, coming directly for your door, you'll wish you had opted for the maximum protection. Of cource, most with roll cages falesly believe "this will never happen to me". Let me assure you, if you race wheel to wheel it's not a matter of IF, but WHEN.

I respect your views, but think that they are more concerned with keeping your car looking nice vs ensuring your safety. If you want to keep your car looking perfect, don't participate in track events. Concours is you gig. The alternative is to spend the money to create a car that is very safe while also spending the money to have the safety additions done at the highest level. You can then also spend more money making your car look perfect. This, of course, will take away from your performance modification budget. So there is a trade off.

Hopefully the following scenario will never happen. You and I are in a club race. You accidentally loop it on the exit of a high speed turn. As I enter the turn (at a high rate of speed) My front brake pad breaks apart and I lose braking ability. Even though I am doing everything in my power to stop, I still carry speed and T-Bone you at the fringe of the track hitting you in the door. Regardless of the outcome, I'll replay this incident in my head for the rest of my life. If you are seriously injured or die, I'll always remember the look on your face and your helmet in the car. All because a NASCAR style door bar would cost more and make the interior of your car look bad. Don't do it!

John Brown

And when seat belts first started appearing the argument went that you could no longer 'jump' or be thrown clear. That argument wasn't valid either.

To effectively 'protect the club' requires a more proactive approach than just following along with the minimum allowed.

chrisp

A lot of this goes back to the original intent of being able to drive a street car to the track and race it. PCA wants to provide for that. Sure, with the budgets being as they are (and people's will to live) safety upgrades are cost-is-no-object. This has outpaced the PCA rues and know there's seems to be an imbalance.

jwade944

Again, I chose to put a cage in my car and I agree that I should put a cage in my car and I would shake my head in disbelief at anyone who chose not to put a cage in their car. I just don't think that should be anyone elses choice but my own.

cooleyjb

I think you are missing the other half of hte story. What about the guy who hits you at speed and kills you because there was no side impact protection. This type of impact happens in club racing. It is not uncommon. Now since the person who was chosing his own safety level has had a profound impact on those around them. It does affect people other than the driver.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. If I was on the grid with someone who only had a roll bar I'd make damn sure to be nowhere near them. It's not fair to me or anyone else on the track to so greatly reduce the safety level of your car.

trackjunky

Your objectivist view (see Ayn Rand) while noble in concept, misses the mark.

Given the personal choice, some would choose to run without even a roll bar. Clearly this level of choice does not benefit everyone involved because no one would be able to insure an event. So, in this case, your choice would no longer exist.

Now, with the current PCA rules, your choice is roll bar or something greater. Since this is a club, and the club members want to race, we need to be able to provide a venue for them to enjoy their choice to race. As cars have gotten faster, more serious on track events have happened. As more serious on track events happen, the members of the club can choose to decrease their overall risk by instituting safety requirements. Your choice still exists. Race a car without a roll cage with clubs that allow this. So you still have a choice.

You have chosen to modify your car (most likely) with technology from today rather than technology from the date of conception of your vehicle. With that said, you should also update your car with safety standards of today rather than those from the inception date of your vehicle. Your car has increased it's performance at a rate greater than the original designers may have intended, so why not take the same path with the vehicles safety?

It's not the same type of bling.............but done right it can be

Geoffrey

The GTC-1 cars are required to run with the stock bushings which are rubber and are the same as the Euro RS and USA Cup bushings. Standard C2/C4/RSA are softer bushings, however in the stock classes you can change out to monoballs, something you cannot do in GTC-1

JC in NY

Actually you can buy them, the only problem is that you have to buy the whole control arm with them, which can get very expensive. The RS/Cup bushings are "bonded" to the control arm, so Porsche does not consider the bushing to be a separate part number.

I heard there was a company, possibly in the UK, that figured out how to make the 964 bushings in various rubber hardness that could serve as replacements for the OEM RS/Cup bushings. You would need to "burn off" the old bushing and press the replacements on your control arms, but this would be an alternative to buying an entire RS/Cup control arm.

jwade944

Your points are well taken and I acknowledge that part of our risk in racing is the psychological effects of an incident. We are discussing a line in the sand and I agree that the line should move as statistics, technology, etc. support the change. I was at the Canadian Gran Prix and was absolutely amazed that Kubica survived that crash. Certainly the rules for PCA club racing do not mandate the level of engineering in our cars that enabled his survival and yet our cars are capable of generating equal forces in a crash. We have raced under the roll bar rule for years and the vast majority of us have chosen to cage up. Other valuable safety systems are available to us and the use is less consistent. Many of us race without fuel cells, fire systems, HANS, etc, that have proven to be improve the overall safety of our sport. Would I feel any less horrible if an incident I was involved in resulted in burns to the other driver? No. I would feel a lot better about this proposed rule change if I was better educated on the statistics that support it. For example, if XYZ club mandates cages and they have ?% injuries and/or deaths per unit and PCA does not and we have ?+ injuries and/or deaths per unit then I see that as more compelling than "what if" scenarios. I realize that XYZ club may have other rules that could affect this comparison, but it would still be useful information. The reality is that many of us could not afford to race if the rules mandated the maximum levels of safety that are technically available to us. Once we acknowledge that compromise, then it becomes a question of where to draw the line for the minimum level that we can all accept. This type of debate should be a part of moving that line.

sleder

The categories stopped with D class what about a '90 C2 in D prepared? Am I missing something?