European GP 07
07-23-2007, 05:37 PM
#76
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I am skimming through the rules right now.
http://www.fia.com/resources/documen...EGULATIONS.pdf
I wondered the same thing? How could he be helped on track and Ralph retired?
Rules 20.1 for starters.....
http://www.fia.com/resources/documen...EGULATIONS.pdf
I wondered the same thing? How could he be helped on track and Ralph retired?
Rules 20.1 for starters.....
07-23-2007, 05:54 PM
#77
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Rule 30.7 No one can touch the car but the driver, except in the pits, paddock, garage or on the starting grid.
Bah, just realized section 30 is for practice rules.
Reading more......
Bah, just realized section 30 is for practice rules.
Reading more......
07-23-2007, 06:16 PM
#78
Race Director
Rule 20.1
Rule 30.7
This once covers the getting the lap back thing.
20) DRIVING
20.1 The driver must drive the car alone and unaided.
20.1 The driver must drive the car alone and unaided.
30) GENERAL SAFETY
30.7 Save as specifically authorised by the Code or these Sporting Regulations, no one except the driver may touch a stopped car unless it is in the paddock, the team’s designated garage area, the pit lane or on the starting grid.
30.7 Save as specifically authorised by the Code or these Sporting Regulations, no one except the driver may touch a stopped car unless it is in the paddock, the team’s designated garage area, the pit lane or on the starting grid.
40) SAFETY CAR
...
40.12 When the clerk of the course considers it safe to do so, and the message "LAPPED CARS MAY NOW
OVERTAKE" is shown on the timing monitors, any lapped cars which were between the cars running on
the lead lap at the time the safety car was deployed (and also remain in that position) will be required to
pass the cars on the lead lap and the safety car. They must then proceed around the track at an
appropriate speed, without overtaking, and take up position at the back of the line of cars behind the safety
car.
...
40.12 When the clerk of the course considers it safe to do so, and the message "LAPPED CARS MAY NOW
OVERTAKE" is shown on the timing monitors, any lapped cars which were between the cars running on
the lead lap at the time the safety car was deployed (and also remain in that position) will be required to
pass the cars on the lead lap and the safety car. They must then proceed around the track at an
appropriate speed, without overtaking, and take up position at the back of the line of cars behind the safety
car.
Last edited by M758; 07-23-2007 at 06:32 PM.
07-23-2007, 06:19 PM
#79
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I was looking around to see if there was a special provision given in the event of a Red flag or Safety car or even in the event of a mass exit from track such as we saw Sunday.
07-23-2007, 06:24 PM
#80
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C'mon guys, are you saying lewis is receiving special treatment 
How is that possible , Ms did'nt recieve special treatment
1. He was allowed to change tubs and started 10th...
2, He was allowed around the pace car to regain his lap
3. He was allowed to re-join the race after being helped out of the kitty litter , while the race was red flagged.
Now as to 1. it appears if the mechanicals are used from the original car changing the tub infers no penalty..
as to 2. No f*****g clue why he was allowed to get back his lap and then allowed a pit stop while getting back that lap..
As to 3. how many of the other cars in the litter where allowed to re-start ?
i will have to look at the race again .....
In the past in case of a mass incident leading to a red flag , drivers could re-start in their backup cars if the main car is damaged.. Once the race has started past the first lap , drivers who cars are damaged are out , if the race is red flagged, the re-start is on aggregate , it did not appear to have happened this way on sunday , if so, Massa could have been the winner , so WTF is going on , has the past rules been changed? ....
How is that possible , Ms did'nt recieve special treatment
1. He was allowed to change tubs and started 10th...
2, He was allowed around the pace car to regain his lap
3. He was allowed to re-join the race after being helped out of the kitty litter , while the race was red flagged.
Now as to 1. it appears if the mechanicals are used from the original car changing the tub infers no penalty..
as to 2. No f*****g clue why he was allowed to get back his lap and then allowed a pit stop while getting back that lap..
As to 3. how many of the other cars in the litter where allowed to re-start ?
i will have to look at the race again .....
In the past in case of a mass incident leading to a red flag , drivers could re-start in their backup cars if the main car is damaged.. Once the race has started past the first lap , drivers who cars are damaged are out , if the race is red flagged, the re-start is on aggregate , it did not appear to have happened this way on sunday , if so, Massa could have been the winner , so WTF is going on , has the past rules been changed? ....
Last edited by A.Wayne; 07-23-2007 at 06:39 PM.
07-23-2007, 07:06 PM
#81
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Track marshalls can aid a car out of the gravel. There is an infamous race a few years ago where Michael Schumacher ended up in the gravel with wheels spinning. He was in the car giving the track marshalls the "push me, push me" signal. THey did and he continued to race. As Hamilton did not stall the car, he was free to go once the tractor (which is considered track marshall help) picked him up and set him down. No team member aside from the driver can push a car while on track.
RE: Hamilton overtaking the safety car: New rules this year similar to the "lucky dog" rule in NASCAR where he gets his lap back. As to the reason why he did that if he was already at the back of the field, is that if he doesn't, he has gained an advantage with an additional 1 lap of fuel aboard. So he has to go all the way around to burn that fuel.
Rules state that anyone can come into the pits, once open and change tires during a safety car period, but you CANNOT add fuel.
RE: Hamilton overtaking the safety car: New rules this year similar to the "lucky dog" rule in NASCAR where he gets his lap back. As to the reason why he did that if he was already at the back of the field, is that if he doesn't, he has gained an advantage with an additional 1 lap of fuel aboard. So he has to go all the way around to burn that fuel.
Rules state that anyone can come into the pits, once open and change tires during a safety car period, but you CANNOT add fuel.
07-23-2007, 07:42 PM
#82
Originally Posted by M3Pete
RE: Hamilton overtaking the safety car: New rules this year similar to the "lucky dog" rule in NASCAR where he gets his lap back. As to the reason why he did that if he was already at the back of the field, is that if he doesn't, he has gained an advantage with an additional 1 lap of fuel aboard. So he has to go all the way around to burn that .
I can't believe that F1 is doing that BS about the "Luck Dog"
07-23-2007, 08:01 PM
#83
Originally Posted by M758
Rule 20.1
Rule 30.7
This once covers the getting the lap back thing.
Rule 30.7
This once covers the getting the lap back thing.
Isn't this rule like Nascar where they go to single file restarts towards the end of the race and the lapped cars go to the back of the line but don't get their lap back. (In Nascar the rest of the race they do the double wide restart with the lapped cars on the inside)
I remember the Schumacher push start episode, I could still swear all FIA rules prohibit anyone from the driver touching the car - look at Lemans where the car is automatically out if a corner worker even touches it, I've seen drivers push their cars into pit lane where the crew waits at the entrance before they can help push.
07-23-2007, 08:03 PM
#84
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It was mentioned at the beginning of the season by Machett. Let's see if this link works www.formula1.com/inside_f1/
Click on 2007 changes under details, not summary. Rule 40.12 indicates that a lapped car can overtake the safety car when signaled by a green light to do so.
Click on 2007 changes under details, not summary. Rule 40.12 indicates that a lapped car can overtake the safety car when signaled by a green light to do so.
07-23-2007, 08:14 PM
#85
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Originally Posted by cupcar86
It seems to me that 40.12 refers to getting lapped traffic out of the way of leading cars as it refers to cars a lap down between cars on the lead lap. Hamilton was already at the tail end and not between any cars.
Isn't this rule like Nascar where they go to single file restarts towards the end of the race and the lapped cars go to the back of the line but don't get their lap back. (In Nascar the rest of the race they do the double wide restart with the lapped cars on the inside)
I remember the Schumacher push start episode, I could still swear all FIA rules prohibit anyone from the driver touching the car - look at Lemans where the car is automatically out if a corner worker even touches it, I've seen drivers push their cars into pit lane where the crew waits at the entrance before they can help push.
Isn't this rule like Nascar where they go to single file restarts towards the end of the race and the lapped cars go to the back of the line but don't get their lap back. (In Nascar the rest of the race they do the double wide restart with the lapped cars on the inside)
I remember the Schumacher push start episode, I could still swear all FIA rules prohibit anyone from the driver touching the car - look at Lemans where the car is automatically out if a corner worker even touches it, I've seen drivers push their cars into pit lane where the crew waits at the entrance before they can help push.
I've got to watch this race again as there was so much stuff going on that it deserves a 2nd look.
07-23-2007, 08:37 PM
#86
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what others had to say
Hamilton Unfairly Aided
Hamilton being lifted out of a gravel trap that he put himself in was the dumbest thing I have ever seen in F1. His car was supposedly in a dangerous position, but the marshals made the situation infinitely more dangerous by plucking him with a crane, driving to the edge of the track into traffic and plonking him down, letting him potentially score points!
He scored no points but he should still be excluded from the race. The other five teams that had cars beached in the gravel should appeal the "help" Hamilton got.
A driver being put back into the race with a crane? What's next huh, a top F1 team getting some 800 pages of a rival's secret data?
Patrick, Marunouchi
Schumi would lose his World Championship...
No doubt you'll get some mewling letters from people who say that Hamilton shouldn't have been lifted out of the gravel at Turn 1.
And I agree.
However, he was in a dangerous position, no question. Unlike Michael Schumacher in the 2003 European GP when he skidded to the edge of the track and got stuck on the kerbs on the outside of the Dunlop Kurve . He was visible all the way down to the Dunlop and in no danger, yet he waved the marshals over and got them to push him out. Incredible.
He went to score 4 points and they were the difference between winning and losing the 2003 World Championship - which he claimed by two points.
So anybody who thinks that Lewis shouldn't have got his handy little lift out from the tow truck on Sunday, must also believe that Schumacher should be a six times not a seven times World Champion.
I think they both should have been out of their respective races.
Ivan Ruffelle
And more...
...Surely if Hamilton was craned back into the race so should the other five drivers who were stuck in the gravel? Look at the pictures! He was in no more of a dangerous position than Button or any of the other drivers!
It was unfair, unjust and unwarranted!
The chap got more favours during yesterday's race than Paris Hilton got while she was in jail. I know the new rule about the safety car says those who have been lapped can unlap themselves but it's really not fair on the front-runners.
All the help in the world and yet Hamilton still fumbled it. It was just desserts.
Daniel
Lewis Wasn't The Only McLaren Driver Who Should've Been Punished
Why has nothing been said or done about Alonso's dangerous driving in the pits when he forced his way past a Honda [that was already under way], and the next team's mechanics?
He should have been penalised for such a dangerous act.
Bruno
Ron's Out of Order
...All the events of this fantastic race aside I was shocked to see Ron Dennis digging into Michael Schumacher on the podium and then shouting across to Alonso and pointing at Schumacher in a derogatory fashion. What is wrong with that man.
Are Schumacher's victories against his team so hard to take that he feels he has to get even on the podium after the man has retired?
You could tell from Schumacher's face that whatever was said was not pleasant but Schumacher showed restraint while Ron Dennis behaved totally unprofessionally for a man in his position.
On another note, I have been lambasting ITV's coverage this year but feel I have to give them their due today as they covered the race superbly and the ad breaks at key moments never materialised. Lets hope they continue in this way.
Dharmesh Raval
* Ron was probably asking Schumi where he got that shirt from. It was something else!*
Talk About A Great Race
After countless race wins on strategy in 2007, a little bit of chaos is a good thing. Nothing spices up a GP like a little bit of H2O.
Johnny Herbert in an interview long time ago:
Interviewer: How will the rain effect the race Johnny?
Johnny: It's going to make it wet.
Sebastian T
Finally Alonso Has Some Luck
I wrote a couple of races back that Alonso needed a change of luck within three or four races or his chances of repeating as champion were likely over. The gods of luck have looked down upon him and he now stands virtually even with Lewis and exceeds him by one victory in case of a tie.
Sooner or later Lewis was going to be involved in a wreck or suffer a mechanical failure, which would allow things to even up. If Kimi hadn't suffered two DNF's he would likely be in the running in the standings also. It looks like McLaren's year - somehow they are getting the breaks when they need them.
Hamilton being lifted out of a gravel trap that he put himself in was the dumbest thing I have ever seen in F1. His car was supposedly in a dangerous position, but the marshals made the situation infinitely more dangerous by plucking him with a crane, driving to the edge of the track into traffic and plonking him down, letting him potentially score points!
He scored no points but he should still be excluded from the race. The other five teams that had cars beached in the gravel should appeal the "help" Hamilton got.
A driver being put back into the race with a crane? What's next huh, a top F1 team getting some 800 pages of a rival's secret data?
Patrick, Marunouchi
Schumi would lose his World Championship...
No doubt you'll get some mewling letters from people who say that Hamilton shouldn't have been lifted out of the gravel at Turn 1.
And I agree.
However, he was in a dangerous position, no question. Unlike Michael Schumacher in the 2003 European GP when he skidded to the edge of the track and got stuck on the kerbs on the outside of the Dunlop Kurve . He was visible all the way down to the Dunlop and in no danger, yet he waved the marshals over and got them to push him out. Incredible.
He went to score 4 points and they were the difference between winning and losing the 2003 World Championship - which he claimed by two points.
So anybody who thinks that Lewis shouldn't have got his handy little lift out from the tow truck on Sunday, must also believe that Schumacher should be a six times not a seven times World Champion.
I think they both should have been out of their respective races.
Ivan Ruffelle
And more...
...Surely if Hamilton was craned back into the race so should the other five drivers who were stuck in the gravel? Look at the pictures! He was in no more of a dangerous position than Button or any of the other drivers!
It was unfair, unjust and unwarranted!
The chap got more favours during yesterday's race than Paris Hilton got while she was in jail. I know the new rule about the safety car says those who have been lapped can unlap themselves but it's really not fair on the front-runners.
All the help in the world and yet Hamilton still fumbled it. It was just desserts.
Daniel
Lewis Wasn't The Only McLaren Driver Who Should've Been Punished
Why has nothing been said or done about Alonso's dangerous driving in the pits when he forced his way past a Honda [that was already under way], and the next team's mechanics?
He should have been penalised for such a dangerous act.
Bruno
Ron's Out of Order
...All the events of this fantastic race aside I was shocked to see Ron Dennis digging into Michael Schumacher on the podium and then shouting across to Alonso and pointing at Schumacher in a derogatory fashion. What is wrong with that man.
Are Schumacher's victories against his team so hard to take that he feels he has to get even on the podium after the man has retired?
You could tell from Schumacher's face that whatever was said was not pleasant but Schumacher showed restraint while Ron Dennis behaved totally unprofessionally for a man in his position.
On another note, I have been lambasting ITV's coverage this year but feel I have to give them their due today as they covered the race superbly and the ad breaks at key moments never materialised. Lets hope they continue in this way.
Dharmesh Raval
* Ron was probably asking Schumi where he got that shirt from. It was something else!*
Talk About A Great Race
After countless race wins on strategy in 2007, a little bit of chaos is a good thing. Nothing spices up a GP like a little bit of H2O.
Johnny Herbert in an interview long time ago:
Interviewer: How will the rain effect the race Johnny?
Johnny: It's going to make it wet.
Sebastian T
Finally Alonso Has Some Luck
I wrote a couple of races back that Alonso needed a change of luck within three or four races or his chances of repeating as champion were likely over. The gods of luck have looked down upon him and he now stands virtually even with Lewis and exceeds him by one victory in case of a tie.
Sooner or later Lewis was going to be involved in a wreck or suffer a mechanical failure, which would allow things to even up. If Kimi hadn't suffered two DNF's he would likely be in the running in the standings also. It looks like McLaren's year - somehow they are getting the breaks when they need them.
07-23-2007, 08:38 PM
#87
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I thought this was the best one yet ,on Lewis 
"The chap got more favours during yesterday's race than Paris Hilton got while she was in jail."
"The chap got more favours during yesterday's race than Paris Hilton got while she was in jail."
07-23-2007, 09:17 PM
#88
The Rebel
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Right from the rule book...
any lapped cars which were between the cars running on
the lead lap at the time the safety car was deployed (and also remain in that position) will be required to
pass the cars on the lead lap and the safety car. They must then proceed around the track at an
appropriate speed, without overtaking, and take up position at the back of the line of cars behind the safety
car.
True lapped cars in between cars that are on the lead lap can overtake the safety car and come around to the back of the pack...HE WAS ALREADY AT THE BACK!!! WTF?!?!?
As for the "air lift" and all the help Lewis gets...it's just ridiculous!
any lapped cars which were between the cars running on
the lead lap at the time the safety car was deployed (and also remain in that position) will be required to
pass the cars on the lead lap and the safety car. They must then proceed around the track at an
appropriate speed, without overtaking, and take up position at the back of the line of cars behind the safety
car.
True lapped cars in between cars that are on the lead lap can overtake the safety car and come around to the back of the pack...HE WAS ALREADY AT THE BACK!!! WTF?!?!?
As for the "air lift" and all the help Lewis gets...it's just ridiculous!
07-23-2007, 11:42 PM
#89
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I cannot remember a year when Ron Dennis said and did so many things that made him look like such a douche bag. Every weekend is somthing new with that guy. Have some sense of respect. You didn't actually beat Schumacher, he was a presenter. Act like you've been on the podium before, not like some 15 year old at a kart race. He must be going through his 2nd mid life crisis. Sorry, just my .02
