Trail Braking Instruction Strategies
#31
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"Go deeper, brake later, while turning"
John - i would not assume that TB means later braking, but it normally means longer braking. So, you still start braking in your normal spot, but you start to release the pedal sooner and keep some braking while turning. Since you are a feel guy, I think you'll learn the most thru riding with someone good.
John - i would not assume that TB means later braking, but it normally means longer braking. So, you still start braking in your normal spot, but you start to release the pedal sooner and keep some braking while turning. Since you are a feel guy, I think you'll learn the most thru riding with someone good.
#32
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Originally Posted by 38D
"Go deeper, brake later, while turning"
Since you are a feel guy, I think you'll learn the most thru riding with someone good.
Since you are a feel guy, I think you'll learn the most thru riding with someone good.
Anybody good got a right seat I can fit in?
#33
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Thanks Guys!
First, not to burst anyone's bubble, but I think that little gem about the transition from "Driving the Grip to Driving the Slip" comes from our learned Rennsport Region colleauge Monsieur Marc Belanger. I remember reading it in Der Auspuff over the Winter and remarking at what an incredibly sage quip it was. I've used it in my articles as well.
Of course, getting some different perspectives on what it is is useful. I'm more interested in how the hell I physically get myself to do it? I think Colin has a large part of the answer; Watch it being done skillfully. The rest is up to me. Man... I HATE having to think when I drive!
First, not to burst anyone's bubble, but I think that little gem about the transition from "Driving the Grip to Driving the Slip" comes from our learned Rennsport Region colleauge Monsieur Marc Belanger. I remember reading it in Der Auspuff over the Winter and remarking at what an incredibly sage quip it was. I've used it in my articles as well.
Of course, getting some different perspectives on what it is is useful. I'm more interested in how the hell I physically get myself to do it? I think Colin has a large part of the answer; Watch it being done skillfully. The rest is up to me. Man... I HATE having to think when I drive!
#34
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TD in DC, that has nothing to do with the actual autocross...that is the fault of the person and club that sets up the course. At our autocrosses before you get back to the box to stop there are many cones set up to slow everyone down and the staging area is not in front of the stop box plus the club trailer is blocking the stage area.
#35
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I'll be honest John.... I'm surprised you're having difficulty with this, and this is from a standpoint of "wow, you have some skills that I'd like to have". When I've gone on rides with you, I was amazed by your smoothness of inputs and it forced me to take a look over at your feetwork, because I was pretty sure that the only way it could be this smooth was with left foot braking. Sure enough, I saw you doing LFB and pretty comfortably.
I would think that with your ease of LFB you would be very comfortable trail braking into turn. When the rotation felt a bit much, you would be easily able to settle the car with the right foot. This would negate much of the drama (from the driver's point of view) throughout the turn.
It just goes to show that mastery of one skill doesn't easily translate into mastery of related skills. That's what keeps this sport challenging...
I would think that with your ease of LFB you would be very comfortable trail braking into turn. When the rotation felt a bit much, you would be easily able to settle the car with the right foot. This would negate much of the drama (from the driver's point of view) throughout the turn.
It just goes to show that mastery of one skill doesn't easily translate into mastery of related skills. That's what keeps this sport challenging...
#36
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Originally Posted by mdrums
TD in DC, that has nothing to do with the actual autocross...that is the fault of the person and club that sets up the course. At our autocrosses before you get back to the box to stop there are many cones set up to slow everyone down and the staging area is not in front of the stop box plus the club trailer is blocking the stage area.
![surrender](https://rennlist.com/forums/graemlins/surrender.gif)
#37
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Originally Posted by TD in DC
I was just joking on a Friday afternoon. I thought the pictures were funny. ![surrender](https://rennlist.com/forums/graemlins/surrender.gif)
![surrender](https://rennlist.com/forums/graemlins/surrender.gif)
![evilgrin](https://rennlist.com/forums/graemlins/evilgrin.gif)
It's all good!
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#38
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The fastest way of learning to trail brake is by out braking the opposition on the way into the corner.
So you brake later than you normally would and find yourself too fast and on the wrong line as you enter the corner. Atr this point you NEED to understand trail braking. In fact if you don't acquire the techniqur 'real soon now', you will be off on some other planet.
But never mind, as the ancients said - 'cometh the hour, cometh the man'.
Seriously, I found it helpful to realise that there is a lot more grip that is often unused, and that its faster to take advantage of that. Whilst braking and turning, its a good idea to be very smooth with your inputs, I think of it as rather like driving in the wet, you just have to be a lot more sensitive to what the car is telling you. You wilol feel vthe rear end sliding too fast and ease off the brakes a fraction and release the steering a knuckle, you will feel the car on the edge. After a shortwhile you will feel that the car's attitude is whatever you want it to be.
R+C
So you brake later than you normally would and find yourself too fast and on the wrong line as you enter the corner. Atr this point you NEED to understand trail braking. In fact if you don't acquire the techniqur 'real soon now', you will be off on some other planet.
But never mind, as the ancients said - 'cometh the hour, cometh the man'.
Seriously, I found it helpful to realise that there is a lot more grip that is often unused, and that its faster to take advantage of that. Whilst braking and turning, its a good idea to be very smooth with your inputs, I think of it as rather like driving in the wet, you just have to be a lot more sensitive to what the car is telling you. You wilol feel vthe rear end sliding too fast and ease off the brakes a fraction and release the steering a knuckle, you will feel the car on the edge. After a shortwhile you will feel that the car's attitude is whatever you want it to be.
R+C
#39
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Hey;
Thanks Brian. Of course you are right that it is a skill whos time is past due for me. In reality, I have been TBing for years, but solely for transitional stabilization, not to lengthen the straight and save the day with "oh ****" rotation.
Thanks Nordy. That is all quite true. Put another way, when the **** hits the fan, it's best to have a raincoat handy!
The turn where I am actually trying to rationalize its use most is the Off Camber at WGI. That is a turn that I KNOW I am having to give up serious entry speed simply because the turn in area will not hold the car. I am convinced there is a lot more entry speed available there, but I'm equally aware that 9 is NOT the turn to practice it in. Best to have mastered it first, methinks.
Certainly no one needs to know TB to have fun, and even be fairly quick. At the same time, the Pilot Emeritus should certainly have it in his dossier!
Thanks Brian. Of course you are right that it is a skill whos time is past due for me. In reality, I have been TBing for years, but solely for transitional stabilization, not to lengthen the straight and save the day with "oh ****" rotation.
Thanks Nordy. That is all quite true. Put another way, when the **** hits the fan, it's best to have a raincoat handy!
The turn where I am actually trying to rationalize its use most is the Off Camber at WGI. That is a turn that I KNOW I am having to give up serious entry speed simply because the turn in area will not hold the car. I am convinced there is a lot more entry speed available there, but I'm equally aware that 9 is NOT the turn to practice it in. Best to have mastered it first, methinks.
Certainly no one needs to know TB to have fun, and even be fairly quick. At the same time, the Pilot Emeritus should certainly have it in his dossier!
#40
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Originally Posted by RedlineMan
The turn where I am actually trying to rationalize its use most is the Off Camber at WGI. That is a turn that I KNOW I am having to give up serious entry speed simply because the turn in area will not hold the car. I am convinced there is a lot more entry speed available there, but I'm equally aware that 9 is NOT the turn to practice it in. Best to have mastered it first, methinks.
#42
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Originally Posted by RedlineMan
Thanks Guys!
First, not to burst anyone's bubble, but I think that little gem about the transition from "Driving the Grip to Driving the Slip" comes from our learned Rennsport Region colleauge Monsieur Marc Belanger. I remember reading it in Der Auspuff over the Winter and remarking at what an incredibly sage quip it was. I've used it in my articles as well.
First, not to burst anyone's bubble, but I think that little gem about the transition from "Driving the Grip to Driving the Slip" comes from our learned Rennsport Region colleauge Monsieur Marc Belanger. I remember reading it in Der Auspuff over the Winter and remarking at what an incredibly sage quip it was. I've used it in my articles as well.
#43
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Originally Posted by Larry Herman
You need to be easing off of the brakes, and transferring some of the tires grip to cornering. The more you come off of the brakes, the more you can turn the wheel. Done correctly, you are optimizing all of the grip of the front tires, from braking to combined to total cornering load. At a certain point though, the rear tires are going to join in the fun.
Trailbraking is all about balancing the car on the outside rear tire. As you brake and turn, the rear tires will need to develop cornering grip. In the beginning the back of the car is light, the grip will be reduced, but as you come off of the brakes, it will start to load, and the grip will increase. The back of the car should feel very nervous at this point, because it is now the rear tires that are setting the limit of your cornering speed. The net result of going over the limit here is an early spin. Here is where the strategies of trailbraking diverge.
![Wink](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif)
Trailbraking is all about balancing the car on the outside rear tire. As you brake and turn, the rear tires will need to develop cornering grip. In the beginning the back of the car is light, the grip will be reduced, but as you come off of the brakes, it will start to load, and the grip will increase. The back of the car should feel very nervous at this point, because it is now the rear tires that are setting the limit of your cornering speed. The net result of going over the limit here is an early spin. Here is where the strategies of trailbraking diverge.
![Wink](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif)
I must confess that I learned trailbraking while racing 125CC Karts. You need to slide those bad boys towards the apex to be fast at some of the big tracks like Vegas and Oklahoma.
You can modulate the brakes more in a car than a Kart, IMHO. I use my data logger to help me justify if trailbraking is beneficial. I've found in the past that where I thought I felt fast, I maybe wasn't so fast. Again, my opinion here.
#44
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[QUOTE=38D]"Go deeper, brake later, while turning"
QUOTE]
John,
Good question and a cool thread. You know more about this stuff than most of us, confirming that we all have more to learn.
For me, it's just a matter of going a little deeper, braking later while turning, just on the edge of a spin, and getting back on the gas just as soon as possible. And when I think I've got it, know it can be done better and faster, so keep working on it.
Dan
QUOTE]
John,
Good question and a cool thread. You know more about this stuff than most of us, confirming that we all have more to learn.
For me, it's just a matter of going a little deeper, braking later while turning, just on the edge of a spin, and getting back on the gas just as soon as possible. And when I think I've got it, know it can be done better and faster, so keep working on it.
Dan
#45
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Originally Posted by RedlineMan
I'm more interested in how the hell I physically get myself to do it?
In some ways I think this like a the old worn or steet tire exercise. Due to the lack of grip it forces you has a drive outside the normal routine thus making you learn something new or refine the technique.